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UC Berkeley inappropriately admitted students as favors to donors

auditor.ca.gov

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Re: UC Berkeley inappropriately admitted students as favors to donors

#261

Post by shuckles »

mywittyname wrote: post #89

People are always going to use their money to buy status. So as long as these college offer prestige & status, people with money are going to use it to get in. Much like doping in sports, you have two paths you can take: try to combat cheating, or accept the cheating as part of the game. I think these universities should accept that they are providing an education, but they are selling prestige, and split their admis…

Private schools can decide what they sell, but the UCs should “sell” a great education to as many people as possible at the lowest cost. In that view, pricing schemes that buy only a few scholarships for the low income is an insane priority.

Re: UC Berkeley inappropriately admitted students as favors to donors

#262

Post by kepler1 »

renewiltord wrote: post #206
ghaff wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every competitive school has a diversity goal (though perhaps not outright quota) at some level for many dimensions of diversity. Many/most schools have academic floors but are then looking to blend in other factors other than pure academic achievement.

The UCs are prohibited from doing this by Prop 209. Prop 16 this year is an attempt to undo that https://ballotpedia.org/California_Proposition_16,_Repeal_Pr...

And yet, they still try to introduce racial diversity by using policies in disguise.

The entire sub-part of UC admissions having to do with top 9% of students (by school) being guaranteed admission is an effort to achieve racial diversity without calling it that and violating the law.

See page 9 and 21 of the UC's admissions materials. https://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/counselors/file...

Re: UC Berkeley inappropriately admitted students as favors to donors

#263

Post by CobrastanJorji »

ajkjk wrote: post #141
mywittyname wrote: post #89

People are always going to use their money to buy status. So as long as these college offer prestige & status, people with money are going to use it to get in. Much like doping in sports, you have two paths you can take: try to combat cheating, or accept the cheating as part of the game. I think these universities should accept that they are providing an education, but they are selling prestige, and split their admis…

I'm generally opposed to this kind of acceptance-of-bad-things but in this case I kinda agree. If people are willing to pay millions to go to college, that's potentially a great advantage to students who otherwise have trouble affording it -- let the rich kids subsidize it for everyone else. By not funneling the donations through weird under-the-table transactions it can be more directly used for a net good for the s…

> I'm generally opposed to this kind of acceptance-of-bad-things but in this case I kinda agree. If people are willing to pay millions to go to college, that's potentially a great advantage to students who otherwise have trouble affording it.

That's true until the University is so rich that it no longer has any need to acquire any more money. Harvard has a $40 billion investment fund. No amount of rich kids are going meaningful move the needle there. At that point, why bother selling spots to rich kids at all? If you're worried about bribery, why not just literally ban students whose parents are wealthy?

Re: UC Berkeley inappropriately admitted students as favors to donors

#264

Post by MiroF »

kepler1 wrote: post #260
MiroF wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cal doesn't have a "diversity quota."

If you don't think UC has a diversity quota, you are deceiving yourself. The entire sub-part of UC admissions having to do with top 9% of students (by school) being guaranteed admission is an effort to achieve racial diversity without calling it that and violating the law. See page 9 and 21 of the UC's admissions materials. https://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/counselors/file...

It's racism against white people to automatically admit everyone to UC (not Cal) who is in the top 9% of their class?

Re: UC Berkeley inappropriately admitted students as favors to donors

#265

Post by selectodude »

Loughla wrote: post #74
gibolt wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1 for 10 seems reasonable, assuming there is also a strict academic requirement for that privileged student. Even more points if it supports their housing and food plan.

The incentive in that system is to ensure the wealthy student absolutely meets their academic requirements, regardless of ability. How can you fail out Timmy Upperclass, if 10 students lose their funding next year with him gone?

Replace him with Billy Upperclass Transfer student.

Re: UC Berkeley inappropriately admitted students as favors to donors

#266

Post by MiroF »

pge wrote: post #149
belorn wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are three systems. People who pay their way in, people who has the highest grades, and people who get in through diversity quota. Transparency in all three would cause a major waves into the public perspective of admission practices.

you neglected to mention athletes, the “acceptable” non-academic path in. In this case, they used that opening to get big donors in.

I think that is the route among many schools to get donors in.

Re: UC Berkeley inappropriately admitted students as favors to donors

#267

Post by teachrdan »

kevincrane wrote: post #251
cultus wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vast majority of high schools where I'm from don't have public pools. Pools have also been less available historically to Blacks. After segregation ended, many jurisdictions defunded public pools rather than fund desegregated pools. Instead, wealthier whites used private ones. For a brief history: https://www.utoronto.ca/news/u-t-expert-troubled-history-bla...

Oh yeah, I don't dispute the history of pools in America in general of having a lot of racist gatekeeping behind them, that's absolutely true. I was just saying that swimming and water polo are super cheap sports to participate in as an athlete.

But to become a competitive student athlete accomplished enough to get into a school like Berkeley, you have to go to a high school with its own pool, coach, and roster of fellow competitive swimmers.

When it comes to who gets these coveted "easy" seats for college admissions, it's not enough to say that the sport is hypothetically inexpensive to participate in. You have to look at all the resources that make it possible to become an elite athlete in that sport. Most public schools--especially poor ones--don't have those resources.

Re: UC Berkeley inappropriately admitted students as favors to donors

#268

Post by protomyth »

mattnewton wrote: post #124
mywittyname wrote: post #89

People are always going to use their money to buy status. So as long as these college offer prestige & status, people with money are going to use it to get in. Much like doping in sports, you have two paths you can take: try to combat cheating, or accept the cheating as part of the game. I think these universities should accept that they are providing an education, but they are selling prestige, and split their admis…

A large part of the prestige comes from being associated with the people who got in on merit. A school that did this would implicitly devalue that prestige for anyone from an obviously wealthy background. Instead they pretend this doesn’t happen to keep the prestige of “got into x school” valuable.

A large part of the prestige comes from being associated with the people who got in on merit.

I can see that for UC Berkeley, but would that be true of somewhere like Harvard? I get the feeling it would devalue some of the perks of a Harvard education to accept on merit, when a lot of the students from low income backgrounds find the value in mixing with the legacy students.

Re: UC Berkeley inappropriately admitted students as favors to donors

#269

Post by vonwoodson »

bencw wrote: post #234
vonwoodson wrote: post #231

I am uncertain why this is such a travesty. Everything else is free market. If these folks want to pay more for school... so be it. If a school is willing to accept sub-par students then they will see their own stats decline, and maybe schools with standards will excel and the free market schools will... have nicer buildings? Whatever.

> I am uncertain why this is such a travesty > If a school is willing to accept sub-par students then they will see their own stats decline I think you just answered your own question.

Free markets don’t care about quality. So, no. My question stands. Why is this a problem worth discussing.

Re: UC Berkeley inappropriately admitted students as favors to donors

#270

Post by protomyth »

potatochup wrote: post #131
setgree wrote: post #84

If you had asked me yesterday what percent of students I thought got into UC schools due to personal connection or wealth, I would have estimated between 10-20%. But this report seems to suggest otherwise: > In Violation of University Policy, the Campuses We Reviewed Admitted 64 Applicants Because of Their Families’ Donations and Connections > UC Berkeley inappropriately admitted 42 other applicants the UC schools as…

Side note, but why are water polo and volleyball considered upper-class sports in the USA? I understand regular polo, rowing, etc, because of the cost of equipment. But at my school (on the other side of the world), volleyball was for the islanders, and water polo was for the misfits who couldn't make it in a more popular sport. What sports in the USA are for the plebs? Baseball?

Water polo requires a pool which is an expense that doesn't make sense for non-rich schools. Volleyball doesn't have a major professional league nor one of the big college sports in the USA, so its not in the interest of poor students to take part in because they probably could also be playing Basketball which has a very high profile league and is a major college sport.
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