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Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

zdnet.com

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Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#421

Post by elihu »

That's interesting. As a white guy who works in a large tech company with a lot of Indians, I'm not sure what to think about this. I can definitely believe that this is a problem even if it's not obvious to me directly, but I can also see how "Indian people treat those of lower castes badly" could itself be a racist trope.

Is there anything that that would be obvious to someone from India but not a white guy from the U.S. that a co-worker is being shunned or mistreated in the workplace on account of their caste? Even knowing what caste each of one's Indian coworkers are in could be helpful in some ways and detrimental in others.

(My impression of the Indian people I've worked with is almost entirely positive, and I generally consider them to be a mistreated class already just because so many of them are here on an H1B visa and therefore could potentially be kicked out of the country if they happened to be laid off, which no doubt is in the back of their minds when considering whether or not to work through the weekend. The employee-employer relationship is edging close enough to slavery to make me uncomfortable.)

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#423

Post by danans »

jerzyt wrote: post #45

What's shocking is that this caste system is being continued in the US. US is oblivious to this system, very few people have any understanding of this, yet it affects success in the corporate world. Obviously, there's enough Indian presence in the business to influence it, but it's flying under the US corporate culture. I've worked with many Indian coworkers in the tech industry, and now I'm rethinking some of the co…

> What's shocking is that this caste system is being continued in the US.

Is it so shocking though? The US has its own sordid history of caste-like discrimination in work, civic, and personal life, as the African American community can attest to. Huge portions of the US had anti-miscegenation laws on the books up until 50 ago [1]

If anything, many of the patterns of discrimination in the US line up quite nicely with those that arrived with some (though not all) Indian immigrants.

This has frequently resulted in a stark schism between the older generation of Indian immigrants, many of whom readily adopted the US' racist attitudes toward African Americans, Mexicans, etc, and their American children, who often have nearly the opposite perspective.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-miscegenation_laws_in_the...

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#424

Post by revel »

I know this article is about Indian tech workers living in the US but it seems part of a broader trend in Indian society.

I'm not Indian but I have worked and lived in India for a long time. In my opinion this problem is getting worse. In the same way that American society is increasingly bimodal, wealth and power are further concentrating in the upper echelons of Indian society. From an outsider's perspective it seems like within the two peaks competition has increased, so insiders will feel like the country has become increasingly meritocratic and technocratic. What I think has happened instead is that the wealthiest, most autocratic families have seen competition tighten, but the overall wealth concentrated at the top has increased dramatically.

I don't know what the long-term effects will be on Indian society but it's going to become an existential problem if not addressed at some point.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#425

Post by travmatt »

kelnos wrote: post #325
mabbo wrote: post #304

At no point do they say "Our company does not and did not allow discrimination against a person for being dalit". That is all they would have to say to take a clear stance- and they don't. > "Cisco is committed to an inclusive workplace for all," the company said in a statement to online news site thewire. > "We have robust processes to report and investigate concerns raised by employees which were followed in this c…

Yup. And IIRC caste isn't a protected class in the US, they can completely ignore the problem -- or even actively allow or endorse it! -- and still be "fully in compliance with all laws".

“”” National Origin Discrimination

National origin discrimination involves treating people (applicants or employees) unfavorably because they are from a particular country or part of the world, because of ethnicity or accent, or because they appear to be of a certain ethnic background (even if they are not). National origin discrimination also can involve treating people unfavorably because they are married to (or associated with) a person of a certain national origin. Discrimination can occur when the victim and the person who inflicted the discrimination are the same national origin. “””

That’s the definition given by the EEOC. I wasn’t sure either, but reading that it leans me towards it being illegal. California is also currently suing Cisco, saying they allowed caste discrimination by a manager. AIUI their defense is that they investigated and were unable to corroborate those allegations, which they presumably wouldn’t do if they considered caste-based discrimination legal.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#426

Post by hairband »

I am not American so I do not fully understand the legal system in US, but it seems this is a lawsuit that alleges caste based discrimination, and the lawsuit is currently pending judgement. If that is the case, shouldn't all the names be anonymized? Is it acceptable in US to make public the names of the accused but not of the accuser? Its one thing to reveal names when they are found guilty, but thats not the case here.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#427

Post by sreevisakh »

dschuetz wrote: post #46

Isn't such cast system a violation of basic human rights regardless if it's institutionalized or not?

Nobody disputes that, including the ones who practice it (well, may be except the most uneducated). The real problem is denialism. The comments to this post itself has numerous examples of that, including anecdotal evidences to downplay the incredible damage it has caused. The practitioners just find other reasons, like job-performance to enforce casteism without directly referring to it.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#428

Post by lol636363 »

mywittyname wrote: post #197
strikelaserclaw wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yea but they will never understand the cultural nuances that it takes to become part of the "in" group, and from reading these articles, it seems that "in" group nepotism is rampant in some places. A caste is not just a name, its a cultural legacy you inherit from your parents, their network and society. Even if you ignore the name part, there are some hidden advantages that are conferred to people of higher castes t…

At some point, wouldn't it be difficult for people to tell? A person who grew up outside of India will only have a passing understanding of this nuance anyway, because they would not have been regularly exposed to the other group, so their entire understanding will be from what is passed to them by their parents. And the next generation will have next to zero understanding. Plus, those nuances will probably get erase…

Unfortunately, no. My wife's best friend is Hindu from Upper Caste. (Brahim) she was born in the United States.

She always been so liberal and open minded. Most of her friends are Muslims. She is barely religious.

But whenever it comes relationships, she brings up caste. She married into upper caste, she was very worried about caste of the guy. If her sister is dating a someone from a different caste, she brings it up and says something like that dating him is like dating a Muslim man. You will not marry him, just have fun. She talks about it with us as if it is totally normal.

Then one of her husband's friend is lower caste Hindu who converted to Christianity. She uses deragotry terms (Malloo?) for him when he is not around.

While I haven't had any deep conversation with her about caste but few times when I asked why she obesses over it, she says it is not just caste but totally different culture. Which to me sounds bullshit.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#429

Post by flowerlad »

sreevisakh wrote: post #418
flowerlad wrote: post #199

There are some areas of India, such as Bihar, where 40% of the populace cannot even read or write, let alone be educated. Such areas tend to be socially backward. Other areas are not that backward. Yes, the ancient caste system still exists in India, in the backward areas. But in other areas it is only relevant when it comes to politics, mainly. See: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/16/opinion/sunday/caste-is-no...

Privileged people just fail to see rampant caste discrimination existing in the entire country. The discrimination you are talking about is the overt one - like in cases where Dalits are prevented from using wells. But covert discrimination exists even in the most prestigious institutions in India [1]. The upper castes do not cite caste as a reason to discriminate, but use other reasons. That way, the upper castes ca…

> rampant caste discrimination existing in the entire country

That's a very broad brush you are painting with! Some parts of the country have made significant progress. See for example work done by Narayana Guru, a social reformer in the 1800s, and its impact: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narayana_Guru#Fight_against_ca...

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#430

Post by foobiekr »

mabbo wrote: post #304

At no point do they say "Our company does not and did not allow discrimination against a person for being dalit". That is all they would have to say to take a clear stance- and they don't. > "Cisco is committed to an inclusive workplace for all," the company said in a statement to online news site thewire. > "We have robust processes to report and investigate concerns raised by employees which were followed in this c…

Some of the people replying are reacting as if the fact that there is no law making this particular discrimination illegal means the company's hands were tied. California is an at-will state, the company could have done literally anything it wanted to.
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