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China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet

reuters.com

371–380 of 456 posts

Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet

#371
post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all lies. I used to believe this line of thought about China. "We aren't expansionist like the US, we just want to do things our way inside of the country". It's not true. China as a unified country has never been as large as it is today. They are actively taking over parts of Nepal, they have taken pieces of land from India, they invaded and took over Tibet, the are nearing genocidal strategies to eradicate any…

Now I know you are lying! The Qing dynasty was far larger than China is today; in fact, it included Bhutan: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_Qing_dynasty_...

They're not lying, most likely, just uninformed.

Most Americans know literally dick-all about Chinese history and substitute a combination of Cold War and WWII history where we're the good guys and the antagonists are the bad guys.

Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet

#372

I think the million+ uighers in concentration camps are a precise analogy for death camps run by you know who in the 20th century. The u.s. should tell China, hey you hid your concentration camps really well, we totally just found out like today, but the thing is we can't let this go on so you have to free all your concentration camps in 18 months or we come invade. Sorrrry. We totally didnt know you were doing this.…

It's like nuclear weapons just don't exist in your mind. I am so glad that geopolitics I'd handled by a select few rather than the supposedly educated crowd of hacker news...

Supposedly educated? That pretense has all but fallen off. The only difference between here and reddit is that people THINK they're educated.

Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet

#373
post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all lies. I used to believe this line of thought about China. "We aren't expansionist like the US, we just want to do things our way inside of the country". It's not true. China as a unified country has never been as large as it is today. They are actively taking over parts of Nepal, they have taken pieces of land from India, they invaded and took over Tibet, the are nearing genocidal strategies to eradicate any…

Now I know you are lying! The Qing dynasty was far larger than China is today; in fact, it included Bhutan: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_Qing_dynasty_...

DAMN! What a beautiful curb your ____ moment!

The British did more empire building in 2-3 hundred years than the Chinese did in a millennium!

Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but it honestly probably would have been if the Central Powers had won WWI. American entry into that war was made possible the sinking of the Lusitania, which was secretly carrying war munitions. There is some evidence that the British enabled the event although this is admittedly a minoritarian view among historians (last I checked). It was undoubtedly beneficial for the Allied Powers though. The British Empire…

Yeah, life would be just peachy if half of Europe lived under the Germans or the Ottoman Empire. What? Why do people from large countries act like no one else exists? Would you like to live in a country run by someone who forces their language and culture on you?

How did we go from 'more lenient war indemnities' and 'false flag operations are bad' to German and Ottoman occupation?

Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet

#375
post #162
post #43

I'm seeing a lot of flagged comments and repeated commenters seeming to exaggerate viewpoints and stir up discord in this thread. I'm not always on the 'china bad' train but it seems like their social engineering efforts have reached HN. Readers, please double-check your sources and form your own opinions beyond repeating what you read in an HN thread.

The problem I am having is that articles like this make it to the front page of HN while not providing any sources of their own. We've seen a sharp uptick in anti-Chinese rhetoric over the last couple of years and most of it seems to be coming from the US State Dept. I have no special place in my heart for China, but this is too reminiscent of US propaganda tactics used to justify invasion in Afghanistan, Iraq, and L…

but, but, muh data!

Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet

#376

I'm currently reading Anne Applebaum's Gulag: A History and the origins are the following: * Initially they had a huge amount of prisoners and shortage of workers in key regions. Naturally they had them work in remote areas. * The real motivation is economic - the central planners simply loved the flexibility of slave labor - they could start pet projects quickly. They wanted to complete vanity projects that made no…

lots of prisoners, shortage of labour, this also sounds like the US-Mexico border and the shortage of farm workers

Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet

#377
post #109
post #77

Imagine in an alternate world, it is 1937 and America imports most of its products from Nazi-run Germany, because they are better at producing them at lower cost. There have been persistent rumours of mistreatment of Jews, particularly on the periphery of their empire, but the reports are disparate and refuted by the Germans. Every year more and more evidence is mounting of German nationalism and forced labour, but s…

You do know that most of the Europeans didn't have a problem with Germany's antisemitism. What do you think why germany had such a big jewish community and culture in the first place? Because they were driven out of the other countries and could live freely in Germany. But also in Germany the hate finally prevailed.

Be real. They don't/didn't

Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet

#378
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Past wrongs do not justify present wrongs. It is not wrong for individuals to choose to assimilate. The deliberate and systematic destruction of other cultures - which China is engaged in on multiple fronts - is wrong.

I see this a lot. There's a loss of confidence in the West, where people feel like you can't call out immoral behavior unless it's committed by another westerner or a western nation. This serves absolutely no one well. The fact that a country or civilization has past sins should not be a disqualification from taking a moral stand in the present. Some form of mild hypocrisy is vastly preferable to sitting silent while…

The problem is not past sins, its past sins that have yet to be atoned for. Conditions for Native Americans are still inexcusable up to this day.

Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet

#379
post #365
post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a question of civics - entering the country is illegal, migrants do that knowingly. FYI they can leave anytime they want, there is a 72 hour clearing process. They are detained due to a transgression of the law, much like anything else. Where we can disagree mostly is the nature of the incarceration etc. - but this is besides the point - China's detention of citizens, arbitrarily, due to their ethnicity or becau…

You're not addressing the point about immigration laws not being universally recognized as moral and just. What about child migrants? You're meaning to tell me that its morally just to intern preteens because they broke your immigration law? To force children to appear before a judge that are so young that they have to draw a cross as their signature? What's grosser here?

These moral equivalence arguments are futile.

I addressed the issue, not only that, the concern about the 'moral universality' of the border laws isn't very relevant.

We put people in prison for 10 years for stealing cars, and there is no 'universal moral agreement' on the issue.

Migrants are not even being held against their will - they can leave in about 72 hours by filing paperwork. They have knowingly entered the country illegally, and are detained. They can go home essentially when they please.

If families were required to 'wait the Holiday Inn' until their hearing (which I think should be the case, no need to hold them in detention), I suggest few would be concerned, so what matters is not so much the issue of detention, but the conditions. I think that most people would probably agree that conditions should be reasonable but that's an operational issue.

But it's besides the point: the US has borders, and just like any for other nation, those borders have to be respected legally by some means.

But this is a giant distraction from the fact that:

China is arbitrarily putting it's own citizens in totalitarian concentration camp conditions due to their ethnicity.

The 'corollary' would be Trump putting 100 000 Latino American citizens in concentration camps purely due to their ethnicity, with no legal recourse, removed from any communication with their families, their every move, thought, action suppressed as they go through intense 'indoctrination training' daily, for years at a time.

It's unthinkable.

But it doesn't stop there:

China spies and censors each and every citizen, kidnapping students, academics - anyone - who speaks out too vociferously against the regime. They rigorously control all established media to enforce propagandistic measures, and censor or suppress anyone who acts against that system. China does not allow citizens to access information outside the country. They've created a giant, dystopian suppression machine.

The corollary would be Trump closing down CNN, NBC, CBS, then taking governmental control of Fox news, and legally requiring Fox to tout his agenda every day. Trump would then mandate Facebook to censor anyone who speaks out against Trump or the GOP / Government. Trump would insert a team of 'GOP agents' within Facebook to ensure absolute compliance. Any FB user who 'talks funny' would be flagged for future reference (i.e. maybe just a little visit from the local cops will suffice to get them to shut up).

Protests would be met with bullets, all media completely suppressed, no legal action or recourse would be possible. To merely mention the issue could land you in jail.

Of course in this scenario, Trump also has absolute power, does not need to be elected, directly controls the Fed/Monetary System, directly controls all major financial institutions, can amend the constitution essentially at will, has no need for any kind of judicial system which would of course be politically controlled, so he could put his enemies (or whoever) in jail whenever he wants, for whatever reason.

Of course he could direct Verizon, Google, AT&T, Stripe, Amazon to provide him with transactional data for anyone, anywhere on earth at anytime, for any reason.

And all of that is only scratching the surface!

So start justifying that list of transgressions, and when we get down to things like 'North Koreans fleeing to Chine held in less than optimal conditions' ... then we're having a discussion.

Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet

#380
post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a question of civics - entering the country is illegal, migrants do that knowingly. FYI they can leave anytime they want, there is a 72 hour clearing process. They are detained due to a transgression of the law, much like anything else. Where we can disagree mostly is the nature of the incarceration etc. - but this is besides the point - China's detention of citizens, arbitrarily, due to their ethnicity or becau…

> It's a question of civics - entering the country is illegal, migrants do that knowingly. So was rescuing Jews from the Holocaust, and China's acts against Tibetans and Uighurs. Let's not mistake what's moral with what's legal; they often overlap in a decent society, but that's by no means guaranteed. You can make a case for "immigration laws are moral", but "they're moral because they're the law" isn't that case.

Morality and legality are deeply intertwined.

Conflating the fact that some people face basic detainment (which they can leave quickly at any time by merely choosing to return home) for breaking clear laws ... with 'Putting millions of Jews in Gas Chambers' is not helping the cause.

If we are so deeply concerned about 'legality vs. morality' then I'd imagine the very first issue coming to mind would be the issue of Uyghurs being put in concentration camps by the 100's of thousands, possibly millions, for no reason at all, other than the fact they are Uyghur.

Especially those dying, having their organs harvested and sent to Chinese elite. [1] [2] [3]

Their arbitrary detention due to ethnicity, and the conditions imposed upon them, I think make a very good corollary to the Nazi / Jewish holocaust, worthy of intellectual consideration.

[1] https://www.businessinsider.com/china-harvesting-organs-of-u...

[2] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/china-religiou...

[3] https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/china-is-harvesting-tho...

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