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Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#121

Post by aloukissas »

swarnie_ wrote: post #101
aloukissas wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, most of the owners of Airbnb and other short-term rentals in Greece are non-Greek citizens who got a "golden passport" in the recent years, buying off a huge chunk of the apartment inventory in Athens and elsewhere. Re: couch-surfing -- probably a bad metaphor on my end. I meant the "rent a room in a house" model that Airbnb offers.

I had no idea. Thinking back I doubt the place we stayed was ever intended to be a rental, it felt like a very large house which had been portioned up in to 4 flats and a make-shift reception area added. Cool city but some worrying experiences, might check out some islands next time.

One such reference: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/02/16/mass-evictions-a...

Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#122

Post by banach_d »

legitster wrote: post #18

Airbnb listings are associated with a fairly small but noticeable increase in rents: https://hbr.org/2019/04/research-when-airbnb-listings-in-a-c... But the question I always wonder is what's so special about hotels that they get to build dozens or hundreds of apartments but don't have to put them on the market? It seems like there is a lot of problems baked into zoning, and it doesn't seem fair to punish Airbnb owne…

In Paris hotels have been extremely tightly regulated for a long time. The original system of 1-5 stars originated there, and was a government-mandated scale based on very specific criteria of quality and facilities. Lots of sharp practice by hotel-owners is outlawed. For example, hoteliers are not allowed to 'bundle' meals with overnight stays. This stops them selling meals of worse quality or higher price than cafes and restaurants. Given the regulation, it seems fair for them to expect that the authorities will crack down on unregulated competitors.

You might argue the pros and cons of the regulation, but it's clear that over the last 100 years, Paris is known as a great place to visit, and the availability of decent and decently priced accommodation has been very successful for the city as a whole, not just its landlords.

Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#123

Post by mytailorisrich »

reaperducer wrote: post #21
gedy wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's mainly to protect Hotels, bed-taxes, etc.

It's mainly to protect Hotels, bed-taxes, etc. No, it's mainly to protect residents. The people who actually make a city a city. If you're looking for greed and cash, look to the Airbnb companies that operate hundreds or thousands of rentals. Hotels are zoned into commercial areas so that they don't ruin residential areas. Airbnb flouts that. There are places in Chicago where corporations that own fleets of Airbnb bu…

Hotels are not "zoned on commercial areas" in central Paris. It's highly mixed.

The problem is really for residents of a single building when that building is pretty much turned into a hotel with people coming and going all the time because of AirBnb flats.

There is an element of truth, though, in claiming that hotels do not like the competition from AirBnb. Case in point, tourists love AirBnb.

The fundamental force at play in a place like Paris is the many millions of people who want to visit every year.

Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#125

Post by adriand »

gherkinnn wrote: post #95
vertis wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a digital nomad I live my life in AirBnBs (with the exception of the occasional hotel and housesit). Over the last 2 years I have stayed in ~20-30 AirBnBs in Asia and Europe (we were going to do the Americas this year...alas). Without AirBnB I don't know how we would be able to live as digital nomads. Hotels are not acceptable because they lack kitchens and laundries (and laptop friendly workspaces). I understand…

> But one of the things the we value as digital nomads is living as the locals live (or as close as possible). Nah, mate. Nomads living like locals is an oxymoron. It doesn’t come close. I wish Airbnb-ers would stop touting this. You haven’t seen restaurants come and go. You don’t know the intricacies of local culture and etiquette. If you do speak the language, you don’t speak the lingo. You have never fought with t…

This sounds like what people say about immigrants. They don’t have deep roots or a command of the local lingo either, but they are still “locals” once they are living where locals live, shopping where locals shop, etc.

Nomads, migrants, whatever: if you treat your neighborhood and your neighborhood with respect, that’s what matters.

Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#126

Post by munchbunny »

maximente wrote: post #116
gherkinnn wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But one of the things the we value as digital nomads is living as the locals live (or as close as possible). Nah, mate. Nomads living like locals is an oxymoron. It doesn’t come close. I wish Airbnb-ers would stop touting this. You haven’t seen restaurants come and go. You don’t know the intricacies of local culture and etiquette. If you do speak the language, you don’t speak the lingo. You have never fought with t…

great point. virtually all AirBnb users espousing "want to live life like the locals" are basically using coded language for "don't want to stay with the 'other' tourists" - as if they are not tourists themselves. it may also mean that they don't want to pay the hotel prices they see, so in order to sustain their lifestyle financially, they'll find a cheaper place via Airbnb.

I think that's being uncharitable to travelers. That might be true for some tourists, but I believe there are plenty of travelers who have honest anthropological curiosity about the cultures of the places where they're visiting. And that's a good thing.

The problem is that policy around short term rentals is agnostic to the renter's intentions. There's no real way I can think of to enforce "conscientious renters only" without also creating a system that gives too much leverage to badly intentioned hosts (for lack of a less context-specific word). So on the balance of considerations, and alongside all of the other effects that short stays have on communities, I'm mostly on the side of throwing this particular baby out with the bathwater.

Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#127

Post by mytailorisrich »

boudin wrote: post #28
dalbasal wrote: post #3

I don't fall strongly on either side of these debates, but I'm kind of against the debate as a whole. I just don't think that trade offs between short stay rentals, even airbnb hotels, and rental housing has much of a win in it for renters even if advocates get everything they want. It seems like a marginal, symbolic issue that sucks up a lot of attention without the potential for meaningful results. Are bans on shor…

The answer is clearly yes. Being able to convert apartments to short term rentals for tourists while bypassing the whole legislation in place does reduce housing availability. For example, you are supposed to build an apartment equivalent to the one you are converting to a tourism rental in a lot of cities in France. Airbnb does not enforce that and was a way for dodgy companies to bypass the law. This won't force af…

Central Paris is small-ish and fully developped.

The only way to increase the housing supply is to destroy old buildings (that make Paris what it is) and to build Hongkong-style towers instead (which nobody wants).

Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#128

Post by closeparen »

joshgev wrote: post #20

I understand that this definitely helps some vested interests (hotel industry, for instance), but the issue transcends a discussion of hotels vs. Airbnb and the cost of housing. I've had the displeasure of living in an apartment building that was used partially for long-term tenants (of which I was one) and short-term Airbnb guests. The experience was terrible. Constant noise, incredibly inconsiderate people leaving…

> seemed pretty reasonable; they wanted a quiet neighborhood where their kids could play

This is certainly a valuable thing, I can see why people want it and I support it being available to them. But why are these the only people who seem reasonable? This land use is just as disruptive to the enjoyment of others as "a vibrant city with street life and parties." Why is this preference so privileged over all the others?

Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#129

Post by notdang »

gherkinnn wrote: post #95
vertis wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a digital nomad I live my life in AirBnBs (with the exception of the occasional hotel and housesit). Over the last 2 years I have stayed in ~20-30 AirBnBs in Asia and Europe (we were going to do the Americas this year...alas). Without AirBnB I don't know how we would be able to live as digital nomads. Hotels are not acceptable because they lack kitchens and laundries (and laptop friendly workspaces). I understand…

> But one of the things the we value as digital nomads is living as the locals live (or as close as possible). Nah, mate. Nomads living like locals is an oxymoron. It doesn’t come close. I wish Airbnb-ers would stop touting this. You haven’t seen restaurants come and go. You don’t know the intricacies of local culture and etiquette. If you do speak the language, you don’t speak the lingo. You have never fought with t…

I live in a foreign country for 10 years, in the same place. I never voted in the local elections (I cannot), never fought with local municipality, but I see it as my home.

Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#130

Post by R0b0t1 »

dzonga wrote: post #99
vertis wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a digital nomad I live my life in AirBnBs (with the exception of the occasional hotel and housesit). Over the last 2 years I have stayed in ~20-30 AirBnBs in Asia and Europe (we were going to do the Americas this year...alas). Without AirBnB I don't know how we would be able to live as digital nomads. Hotels are not acceptable because they lack kitchens and laundries (and laptop friendly workspaces). I understand…

they're suite hotels or what they call extended stays in america. that come with all those amenities. I used to be a proponent of airbnb but then noticed in NY how affordable housing all lost out due to airbnb. so yeah airbnb should be limited to maybe 2 weeks a year for a property.

A better limitation I saw was that the owner doing the BnB listings had to actually live in the property the majority of the year.
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