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Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#31

Post by jonplackett »

littleweep wrote: post #10
lhnz wrote: post #9

I wonder if this has a positive or negative effect on tourism within Paris?

I feel like someone first decides on a destination and then decides on where to stay. I don't think a sizable portion of travelers prioritize staying in an apartment or private home over visiting Paris.

We just went to París (in the time before...) and staying in an Airbnb.

We probably wouldn’t have gone if there’d only been hotels available. We have a child who needs her own room and it’s just such a massive pain figuring that out with a hotel.

Airbnb means we can get her in bed and have an evening together sitting in the lounge and making food in the kitchen without worrying about where in the hotel a baby monitor will reach, or whatever weird things come up after the photos from the hotel room turn out to be completely fictitious as usual.

Just like Uber VS minicabs and Amazon VS other online shops - the reason people like the new thing is mostly because the old thing was TERRIBLE.

Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#32

Post by ptero »

littleweep wrote: post #10
lhnz wrote: post #9

I wonder if this has a positive or negative effect on tourism within Paris?

I feel like someone first decides on a destination and then decides on where to stay. I don't think a sizable portion of travelers prioritize staying in an apartment or private home over visiting Paris.

When I am traveling alone, I seldom care if I stay in an apartment or a hotel. In fact I often lean towards hotels as a single room is just fine and its conveniences convenient.

But when I am with a family, especially coming from a different time zone (when someone will wake in a middle of the night and wants to read for an hour), an apartment makes a huge difference for me. Visit Paris once -- sure, even if I have to stay in a cramped room. Deciding on where to go for a quick weekend side trip with a family -- availability of Airbnb-style lodging may be a deciding factor. My 2c.

Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#33

Post by aloukissas »

Glad to see this. The same thing (to a worse degree) has happened in Athens, where the supply of rental units has diminished to more than 1/3 (with average rents going 2-3x in a 1-2 year period), as landlords converted units to short-term rentals. This is particularly touchy for Greece, as tourism accounts for 25%+ of GDP, so tourist-friendly regulation has a big impact. OTOH, it's a country with one of the lowest average wages in the EU, which means that the rent increases has made the situation unlivable. Example: average net monthly salary is something in the 800-1000 EUR range, with 300EUR renting you something decent 5 years ago. Today, not only it's much harder to find vacant rental units, but their prices have also bumped to 600-700 EUR.

IMO, the best approach to this is similar to what the city of Santa Monica has -- hosts can only rent a room in a property (i.e. no "entire house to yourself"), i.e. similar to the couchsurfing model. I've found this a pleasant experience when visiting a new city, as living with a local can make the stay more personal and enjoyable.

Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#34

Post by arcturus17 »

joshgev wrote: post #20

I understand that this definitely helps some vested interests (hotel industry, for instance), but the issue transcends a discussion of hotels vs. Airbnb and the cost of housing. I've had the displeasure of living in an apartment building that was used partially for long-term tenants (of which I was one) and short-term Airbnb guests. The experience was terrible. Constant noise, incredibly inconsiderate people leaving…

Everyone I've talked to in Madrid has had the same experience you describe.

Neighbor communities ("comunidad de vecinos", akin to a homeowner's association) are enshrined by Spanish law and I believe they can act against the AirBnBization of buildings in some cases, but further EU-level protection for locals are more than welcome.

Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#35

Post by legitster »

weego wrote: post #11
dalbasal wrote: post #3

I don't fall strongly on either side of these debates, but I'm kind of against the debate as a whole. I just don't think that trade offs between short stay rentals, even airbnb hotels, and rental housing has much of a win in it for renters even if advocates get everything they want. It seems like a marginal, symbolic issue that sucks up a lot of attention without the potential for meaningful results. Are bans on shor…

In a healthy housing market like the one I own a rental property in, long-term rental is a margin business while you have mortgage and taking to account wear and tear etc and encourages properties being kept in family friendly sizes and year round accommodation for people who need to live and work locally. The airbnb model allows you to have much larger margins while the property empty for periods of time, promotes s…

I would push back a bit on a few points here:

- Airbnbs are generally concentrated in touristy urban areas - places that are pricey to begin with. Or spaces that did not make for good apartments (small mother-in-laws, basement conversions). Airbnbs are not displacing inventory on the low end of the market, and potentially bring new inventory to the market.

- Airbnbs rarely sit empty. The market is pretty efficient, and you can have the same occupancy year round, just at reduced rates (in winter months, it may even be cheaper than renting an equivalent unit).

- Splitting properties into multiple smaller units is a good thing. The fact that there are square footage requirements for apartments but not short term rentals is a zoning failure.

I think the takeaway should be that rental markets are very inefficient, and Airbnb reveals a lot of pent up demand.

Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#36

Post by helen___keller »

legitster wrote: post #18

Airbnb listings are associated with a fairly small but noticeable increase in rents: https://hbr.org/2019/04/research-when-airbnb-listings-in-a-c... But the question I always wonder is what's so special about hotels that they get to build dozens or hundreds of apartments but don't have to put them on the market? It seems like there is a lot of problems baked into zoning, and it doesn't seem fair to punish Airbnb owne…

> It seems like there is a lot of problems baked into zoning

Talk about an understatement. The use of zoning, as far as I can tell, became a frenzy to use this tool to solve every pet problem. Lack of parking, businesses too loud near residences, blocking light, enforcing neighborhood character or feel, keeping "those people" out of your neighborhood, etc.

The end result is that zoning is just paralysis for urban development. You have a ton of funding to get through the zoning board and get exceptions for breaking the rules and to grease some wheels, or you don't build period.

I think a more free and more reasonable approach is like what you find in japan, where (as far as I can tell) it is both very easy to get approval for construction in a wide range of common projects and also very easy to convert a living space to a hotel space. While I was in Japan, i spent a few nights in a "standard" hotel (fancy highrise building with a nice lobby and so on), and a few nights in what was basically just a fairly large house in a desirable area converted into a ryokan-style hotel, with a few rooms downstairs where they served breakfast for guests every morning (it was delicious, by the way).

It wasn't peak tourist season, so the rates were ridiculously affordable for a fashionable and touristy region of a fashionable and touristy developed country.

Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#37

Post by graeme »

helen___keller wrote: post #36
legitster wrote: post #18

Airbnb listings are associated with a fairly small but noticeable increase in rents: https://hbr.org/2019/04/research-when-airbnb-listings-in-a-c... But the question I always wonder is what's so special about hotels that they get to build dozens or hundreds of apartments but don't have to put them on the market? It seems like there is a lot of problems baked into zoning, and it doesn't seem fair to punish Airbnb owne…

> It seems like there is a lot of problems baked into zoning Talk about an understatement. The use of zoning, as far as I can tell, became a frenzy to use this tool to solve every pet problem. Lack of parking, businesses too loud near residences, blocking light, enforcing neighborhood character or feel, keeping "those people" out of your neighborhood, etc. The end result is that zoning is just paralysis for urban dev…

Is airbnb controversial in Japan or a non-issue? Their zoning system should be a good test case.

Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#38

Post by bobthepanda »

legitster wrote: post #18

Airbnb listings are associated with a fairly small but noticeable increase in rents: https://hbr.org/2019/04/research-when-airbnb-listings-in-a-c... But the question I always wonder is what's so special about hotels that they get to build dozens or hundreds of apartments but don't have to put them on the market? It seems like there is a lot of problems baked into zoning, and it doesn't seem fair to punish Airbnb owne…

Hotels are specifically sited to keep the nuisance of short term visitors away from residents.

If people are staying for a short term they don’t have much incentive to keep the place nice. You can call the cops and they’ll get a warning the first time but that doesn’t matter when they will fly out of the jurisdiction next morning.

Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#39

Post by thebean11 »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #30
xphilter wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not just housing prices. It’s community and neighborhood. People want to live in a neighborhood with actual people, not a decentralized hotel. I say this as someone who has done short term rentals in Paris—it was nice for me, but I can see how annoying it must be for residents.

I wonder if this argument holds less weight now that people in blocks of flats in some metropolises have less interest in interacting with their neighbours than decades ago -- in Helsinki for instance it is a faux pas to speak to one's neighbours, and some even claim that politeness demands you check through the peephole that the hallway is empty before going out, so you don't bump into a neighbour and make him/her u…

Interacting with neighbors is one part, but it's also things like noise, and the businesses in the area (catering to tourists vs locals).

Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#40

Post by ptero »

MereInterest wrote: post #16
xphilter wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not just housing prices. It’s community and neighborhood. People want to live in a neighborhood with actual people, not a decentralized hotel. I say this as someone who has done short term rentals in Paris—it was nice for me, but I can see how annoying it must be for residents.

Exactly. The apartment complex I'm in rents out some apartments on AirBnB, including the one directly above me. The direct impact is only that it gets vacuumed far more often than a normal tenant would (between each AirBnB usage, about twice a week), increasing the noise. The indirect impact is that I do not have an opportunity to say hello to neighbors, ask how they are doing, send excess baked goods, etc. If a long…

Most short term rentals in apartment complexes are actually against the rental contract of the building. Thus you probably have a very strong hand when you deal with a noisy host. I would still be nice to stay friends with a neighbor, but if vacuuming bothers you and you ask the host to limit vacuuming to certain hours of the day he will likely jump to do your bidding. My 2c.
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