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China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet

reuters.com

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Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet

#131

Post by iliveinchina »

Tibetan history, like Chinese history, is complicated.

On the subject of Tibetan assimilation: what most people think of Tibet - that is the current Tibetan autonomous region of the PRC - is actually only about 1/3 of what many Tibetans would call "Tibet."

What is culturally and ethnically Tibetan actually stretches across Qinghai province, as well as large swaths of Sichuan, and part of Yunnan and Gansu. If you go to these regions and talk to Tibetans, they will tell you you are in Amdo, Kham, etc, even though you may be in the administrative province of, for example, Sichuan. Residents will still sometimes even use these designations on their postal envelopes.

There are some historical reasons for the way Tibet is currently defined, but "Tibet" was also chopped up into a much smaller contemporary "tibet" for, er, strategic reasons.

If you are interested in the big 3 Tibetan regions:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amdo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kham

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9C-Tsang

Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet

#132

Post by dumb1224 »

cwwc wrote: post #48
iliveinchina wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've hiked through regions of Tibet and talked to villagers in relatively remote areas. One thing I saw hiking in the mountains and valleys was abandoned nomad lodges and pastures. My Tibetan guide sadly explained to me that the local officials found the nomads too hard to manage when they were living independently and so used a system of sticks and carrots (fines and subsidies) to move them into villages that were c…

This is a great point. An additional aspect to this is developers - while living in China, I spoke with a number of officials who essentially admitted that a major aspect of "relocation" was driven by developers who purchased land from the local governments and then were lent money by the local government. When those buildings weren't filled, and with the pressure to pay back loans mounting, the developers and local…

What you are saying is definitely true in a general sense; a lot of local gov income comprises of shady land deals. However it is a bit different in 'far border' areas such as Tibet/Xinjiang. Land is not scarce, and development not so attractive. Also as some one grew up in China I would take a pinch of salt on what the 'officials' are admitting. There won't be anything meaningful if you haven't got a real tie with them. Besides after Xi became president, calling out corrupted officials is a such massive effort and that's why Xi (or more precisely the group he may represent) has so many enemies even in the party.

Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet

#133

Post by actuator »

coldtea wrote: post #120
apexalpha wrote: post #55

The whole Tibet situation is such a horrible one. From our Western perspective it feels so wrong that they're essentially trying to extinguish an entire culture and 'fitting' it into China. But we also can't say anything because China makes all our stuff. Plus, China isn't going to be impressed when the old Imperial continent with 140 ex-colonies and the current imperial top-dog with 800 foreign military bases are go…

> From our Western perspective it feels so wrong that they're essentially trying to extinguish an entire culture and 'fitting' it into China. Yeah, kinda like Hawaii. (Not to mention Native Americans' lands, civilization, and culture). Or, well, Mexico. Sure, it's, "whataboutism". Which is an improvement on the our-shit-doesn't-smell-besides-that-was-back-a-while-ago-so-we-get-to-keep-it-now "Western perspective". Or…

> So like Hawaii?

Are people in Hawaii still getting held at gunpoint to assimilate to whatever American culture is? If yes, we should definitely complain about it now.

> Yes. Plus they have old claims to the area (as valid as a claim can be).

Yes, we all know about those claims like the comical nine dash line. Tibet has always been a historical buffer state between the Chinese and Indian civilizations, culturally influenced by both. Sure, some Chinese empires were able to defeat them to force them to be a part of the empire for some centuries but that's about it.

It must be fun to take out a map with some line that some loon drew in the past to lay claim over anything you wish. I guess we can even expect a map for Mars in future.

Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet

#134

Post by ceejayoz »

yters wrote: post #122
apexalpha wrote: post #55

The whole Tibet situation is such a horrible one. From our Western perspective it feels so wrong that they're essentially trying to extinguish an entire culture and 'fitting' it into China. But we also can't say anything because China makes all our stuff. Plus, China isn't going to be impressed when the old Imperial continent with 140 ex-colonies and the current imperial top-dog with 800 foreign military bases are go…

we call out all our own flaws from the past and now reject colonialism additionally, our country was founded by people escaping religious persecution why are not right to call out others currently making our mistakes from the past?

> now reject colonialism

Nah, we just changed how it's done.

Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet

#135

Post by aww_dang »

yters wrote: post #126
coldtea wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From our Western perspective it feels so wrong that they're essentially trying to extinguish an entire culture and 'fitting' it into China. Yeah, kinda like Hawaii. (Not to mention Native Americans' lands, civilization, and culture). Or, well, Mexico. Sure, it's, "whataboutism". Which is an improvement on the our-shit-doesn't-smell-besides-that-was-back-a-while-ago-so-we-get-to-keep-it-now "Western perspective". Or…

so if a reformed mob boss sees other mobsters extorting people, he cannot step in and stop them because he did the same thing in the past? every culture has done horrible things in the past. does that mean no one should try to prevent modern crimes against humanity? i really don't understand this kind of ethical reasoning, just sounds like pious excuses to sit on our hands

It sounds like deflection, false equivalency and whataboutism. Discussions about the CCP frequently devolve into these tropes.

Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet

#136

Post by oxymoran »

colesantiago wrote: post #89
oxymoran wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have to recognize the problem before we can work up the courage. And unfortunately, most people don’t recognize the problem. Worse, there is a tendency for some people to smear you as a right wing Trump supporter when you criticize China.

I'm sure people were critical of China before Trump took office, nevertheless you've got a point and I don't get why you've been downvoted. I hope it doesn't get to major atrocities to happen before the world wakes up to what China is doing.

People have been critical of China for decades and deservedly so. The only thing that has changed is that the political landscape in the US has descended into madness.

The CCP has already committed disgusting atrocities during the cultural revolution in the 60’s but the world magically ignores that so I am pessimistic to say the least.

Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet

#137

Post by yters »

ceejayoz wrote: post #134
yters wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

we call out all our own flaws from the past and now reject colonialism additionally, our country was founded by people escaping religious persecution why are not right to call out others currently making our mistakes from the past?

> now reject colonialism Nah, we just changed how it's done.

maybe we do something else bad now, but we no longer do the particular thing known as colonialism

Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet

#138

Post by wil421 »

mattnewton wrote: post #104
magicsmoke wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And in an extreme twist of irony, the NYPD officer is ethnically Tibetan.

He probably had family they got to.

His dad was retired PLA and a party member. His mom was a government official and also a party member.

In a way they did get to them but not in the way you imply.

Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet

#139

Post by levosmetalo »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #100
ReptileMan wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Han supremacy has all the markings of other supremacist movements and will unfortunately need to be confronted. Are you willing to sacrifice your life for the freedom of Tibet? I am not

Why were our grandparents willing to sacrifice their life for the Europeans?

I wish grandchildren of your grandparents today would be less willing to sacrifice their lives for anyone in the world by playing the worlds' government, lawmaker and policemen.

The world would be much safer and peaceful place.

Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet

#140

Post by coldtea »

aww_dang wrote: post #130
coldtea wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From our Western perspective it feels so wrong that they're essentially trying to extinguish an entire culture and 'fitting' it into China. Yeah, kinda like Hawaii. (Not to mention Native Americans' lands, civilization, and culture). Or, well, Mexico. Sure, it's, "whataboutism". Which is an improvement on the our-shit-doesn't-smell-besides-that-was-back-a-while-ago-so-we-get-to-keep-it-now "Western perspective". Or…

Judging the past on the standards of the present isn't a productive line of reasoning. Using past mistakes to rationalize further atrocities is beyond regressive.

>Judging the past on the standards of the present isn't a productive line of reasoning.

Well, the US still has Hawaii, Mexico, Puerto Rico, the Native Americans confined in reservations, and so on. They're not giving those back anytime soon.

Those, plus, 3-4 invasions and tons of bombings of different places (sovereign countries) in the last 20 years alone. Plus a continuous such history throughtout the 20th century. Plus several proxy states, thousands of bases, and so on.

That's not some "distant" past...

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