Earlier quoted context omitted.
Break the great firewall. Show the Chinese citizens exactly what the CCP is doing and hope that they revolt. Starlink should have the power to do that very soon.
Starlink is a Musk project. So is Tesla's Giga production facility in Shanghai. Will he want to be forced to choose between them?
China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet
111–120 of 456 posts
Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet
#112The whole Tibet situation is such a horrible one. From our Western perspective it feels so wrong that they're essentially trying to extinguish an entire culture and 'fitting' it into China. But we also can't say anything because China makes all our stuff. Plus, China isn't going to be impressed when the old Imperial continent with 140 ex-colonies and the current imperial top-dog with 800 foreign military bases are go…
Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet
#113Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ye, but how could one possibly do that?
Break the great firewall. Show the Chinese citizens exactly what the CCP is doing and hope that they revolt. Starlink should have the power to do that very soon.
Consider that they probably understand their government better than you do. They saw a great coronavirus response followed immediately by a stellar response to a 100-year flood event, the kind that used to dislocate millions of people. Meanwhile, they can all see the results of the US system at present.
Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet
#114* Initially they had a huge amount of prisoners and shortage of workers in key regions. Naturally they had them work in remote areas.
* The real motivation is economic - the central planners simply loved the flexibility of slave labor - they could start pet projects quickly. They wanted to complete vanity projects that made no economic sense like the Belomorcanal. Their need for hard currency also meant that they needed raw resources for export, most of which were in faraway, underdeveloped regions.
* Repressive organs found that they were strongly incentivised to send even more people to the camps.
* There was obviously no free media - which meant that any excess was covered up or spun as success - for example Gorky acknowledged that prisoners don't have the proper skills or tools, but somehow claimed that ideology and superb management created wonders. This eventually emboldened the government to enslave even more people.
In short they created a slave economy. It wasn't by design, in so far that the leaders of the country didn't explicitly wish the return of slavery and serfdom, but there was a spiral of reinforcing incentives in the system.
Just like the USSR of the 20s and 30s China is desperate to create economic growth at all costs, will eventually run out of cheap rural labor[0], on which it used to rely for the last few decades and is not beholden to either national or international opinion. Who can stop the CPC from reintroducing slavery or serfdom? The Gulag system developed over 10 years to reach it its classical form, we may well see the first steps.
Economist Evsey Domar famously created a model where high labour demand and lots of available land creates incentives for landowners to reintroduce serfdom [1] as they didn't want to compete with each other. Is China's capital being accustomed to cheap labourers migrating from poor rural areas the reason why rural minorities are now forced into labour by the government?
[0]: https://tradingeconomics.com/china/rural-population-percent-... - this is the total rural population, but I assume eventually many of the remaining people will be old or average-off Han that like it in the villages.
[1]: https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/63299/causeso...
Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet
#115It is sad for a number of reasons, but in situations like this it removes moral standing of the US to criticize others, because clearly there is little introspection happening.
The US houses 25% of the world’s prison population, how much more law and order do we need? Why do our prisoners labor for our governments and companies? Is this forced?
Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet
#116Earlier quoted context omitted.
Han supremacy? Laughably absurd. Just because some other cultures have a history of thinking they're better than everyone else doesn't mean that every culture does. Accounts of what China and the West thought of each other survive from the era of Marco Polo. The Chinese thought of Western Civilization with equality and respect. The West's opinion on the Chinese? Barbarians. Every country has its bigots, but suggestio…
This is some grade A+ projection over here. Han chauvinism was so bad that Mao Zedong drafted a party directive specifically to address it.
Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet
#117Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why were our grandparents willing to sacrifice their life for the Europeans?
Well they weren't. It took great deal of effort to get involved in both wars. The US has traditionally been isolationists on matters in the eastern hemisphere. And it took world wars - here we are talking about internal china problem which is harder sell. China invading someone US cares about - like Japan may convince the US public to pay the nuclear butcher bill, but what they do on their own territory is not
Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet
#118What China has done to Tibet is horrible. One thing that is missing from this article is how they are doing this? How are they coercing people? Are they literally dragging them out of their homes? Threatening them? Or are they just offering them opportunities that are actually preferable to their current conditions, and the people are accepting them?
I've hiked through regions of Tibet and talked to villagers in relatively remote areas. One thing I saw hiking in the mountains and valleys was abandoned nomad lodges and pastures. My Tibetan guide sadly explained to me that the local officials found the nomads too hard to manage when they were living independently and so used a system of sticks and carrots (fines and subsidies) to move them into villages that were c…
Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet
#119I think the million+ uighers in concentration camps are a precise analogy for death camps run by you know who in the 20th century. The u.s. should tell China, hey you hid your concentration camps really well, we totally just found out like today, but the thing is we can't let this go on so you have to free all your concentration camps in 18 months or we come invade. Sorrrry. We totally didnt know you were doing this.…
The US isn't going to invade China; I mean, it fought North Korea to a draw and could stomach Vietnam, and you think it's going to make a credible threat to invade China over internal policy?
And, if it did make such a threat and China believed it, that would just drive things into high gear. When someone's already doing a plan that is basically forcibly assimilate or exterminate, a timeline just pushes it to expedite the latter.
Re: China sharply expands mass labor program in Tibet
#120The whole Tibet situation is such a horrible one. From our Western perspective it feels so wrong that they're essentially trying to extinguish an entire culture and 'fitting' it into China. But we also can't say anything because China makes all our stuff. Plus, China isn't going to be impressed when the old Imperial continent with 140 ex-colonies and the current imperial top-dog with 800 foreign military bases are go…
Yeah, kinda like Hawaii. (Not to mention Native Americans' lands, civilization, and culture). Or, well, Mexico.
Sure, it's, "whataboutism". Which is an improvement on the our-shit-doesn't-smell-besides-that-was-back-a-while-ago-so-we-get-to-keep-it-now "Western perspective". Or the "sure-we-can-get-to-our-shady-stuff-but-at-some-other-time-now-let's-talk-as-if-only-those-bad-countries-do-such-things".
>Plus, China isn't going to be impressed when the old Imperial continent with 140 ex-colonies and the current imperial top-dog with 800 foreign military bases are going to lecture them about occupying a territory.
Yeah, that's the problem I'm talking about.
>For China Tibet is a buffer between India and them and it is where most of their water comes from, so they're never going to let any foreign entity control it. Seems out of the question.
Yes. Plus they have old claims to the area (as valid as a claim can be). Populations whose countries have wars and bases and proxy states and/or colonies all over the world (where they have absolutely no place to be), are in a "glass house" place to throw stones at what China does in its immediate borders...