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Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pay August rent

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Re: Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pay August rent

#241

Post by ojhughes »

ojhughes wrote: post #238
ehnto wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of a lockdown is to stop people who think like you from hurting others. If we could trust people to act responsibly we wouldn't need to lockdown so strictly, but in example after example someone who thinks like you will ruin it for everyone. Regardless, the US has largely already decided to be on your side and let you make your own decision about how to act during a pandemic, and the results speak for thems…

If mask usage was strictly mandated then lockdowns would be unnecessary. Instead, the topic of masks has been pulled into a ridiculous debate. I suspect most lockdown supporters live in a comfortable and spacious environment where they work from home. The cost of lockdown is huge for business owners, domestic abuse victims and those with mental illness. There is increasing research that points to the cost of lockdown…

Studies such as this https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/widespread-facemask-use-...

Widespread spread mask usage in Japan and South Korea has proven very effective as well at controlling the virus and allowing life to go back to normal

Re: Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pay August rent

#242

Post by just-juan-post »

ojhughes wrote: post #241
ojhughes wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If mask usage was strictly mandated then lockdowns would be unnecessary. Instead, the topic of masks has been pulled into a ridiculous debate. I suspect most lockdown supporters live in a comfortable and spacious environment where they work from home. The cost of lockdown is huge for business owners, domestic abuse victims and those with mental illness. There is increasing research that points to the cost of lockdown…

Studies such as this https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/widespread-facemask-use-... Widespread spread mask usage in Japan and South Korea has proven very effective as well at controlling the virus and allowing life to go back to normal

Oop sorry I deleted my reply - I did some thinking myself.

I agree. If nothing else it's a decent mix of freedom and virus control worth considering.

Re: Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pay August rent

#243

Post by user5994461 »

clairity wrote: post #118
jacquesc wrote: post #27

Looks like The Onion was right on with their reporting: "Study Finds Most Restaurants Fail Within First Year Of It Becoming Illegal To Go To Them"

nyc and other municipalities really bungled the categorization of risk. restaurants and bars shouldn't have been lumped together in the first place. most restaurants could have employed some modest measures and stayed open at 80-90% capacity (which may be below break-even for some, but probably enough to ride out the pandemic with price hikes and/or modest gov loans), as risk is isolated between tables (no, that one…

>>> with price hikes

If a restaurant hikes the price, I am never going back there.

Paying £15-£20 with service charge for a steak or burger is already insane. They can't ask for more, especially at the peak of a crisis where there is no money to pay for it.

HN don't get but it but every young graduate is desperate and might not get a job for years while the rest of the workforce got laid off or is under reduced salary.

Re: Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pay August rent

#244

Post by ehnto »

ojhughes wrote: post #238
ehnto wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of a lockdown is to stop people who think like you from hurting others. If we could trust people to act responsibly we wouldn't need to lockdown so strictly, but in example after example someone who thinks like you will ruin it for everyone. Regardless, the US has largely already decided to be on your side and let you make your own decision about how to act during a pandemic, and the results speak for thems…

If mask usage was strictly mandated then lockdowns would be unnecessary. Instead, the topic of masks has been pulled into a ridiculous debate. I suspect most lockdown supporters live in a comfortable and spacious environment where they work from home. The cost of lockdown is huge for business owners, domestic abuse victims and those with mental illness. There is increasing research that points to the cost of lockdown…

I agree with you, however it is connected to the original argument because people have demonstrated they won't wear masks, so you need lockdown instead. If people would wear masks, business could go on.

The cost of lockdown is high, I don't think anyone is disputing that. It's a tradeoff, but we don't really know what's going to be best long term. It's hard to measure without all the data, and who gets to choose the metric for success? Is it economic damage, or social damage, or damage to public health that we're aiming to minimize? I think the answer is that they are all competing goals, and everyone is going to be using a different metric to measure success.

Re: Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pay August rent

#245

Post by statop »

just-juan-post wrote: post #160
MiroF wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Study Finds Most Restaurants Fail Within First Year Of It Becoming Illegal To Go To Them Even without these laws, personal decisions would have decimated the business regardless. Even in places didn't shut down, patronage plummeted.

If people are scared and won't go to restaurants and bars then why continue to keep them closed? You are saying that patronage is already down so why even restrict them? Give people and businesses a choice in the matter. This is about letting individuals and businesses make their own decisions without the government forcing them to close.

This is a story about the ability of human kind to work together to defeat a common enemy.

So far we have failed. The reasons for that failure are many, but it has become clear over this 6+ months that a coordinated top-down plan is what we’re lacking.

The “libertarian” approach like you mentioned has been tried- every relaxation of covid restrictions has been followed by acceleration in the case count. Turns out prayers and positive thinking were unsuccessful in limiting virus transmission.

Be honest Juan, when was the last time you really made your own decision anyhow?

Re: Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pay August rent

#246

Post by brutusborn »

hinkley wrote: post #206
brutusborn wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BTW, why do you send such a hostile response without trying to answer my question? I genuinely just wanted to understand the Parent.

Frustration in a time of triage. You don’t discuss Philosophy or process while a patient is bleeding out in the table. We should be copycatting solutions we’ve already hashed out before. As others have also asked, why are we discussing this now instead of six months ago? If we had anyone with any leadership in either the Legislative or Executive Branch of the Federal government, we wouldn’t even be having this conver…

I can understand the frustration, but not the tone. We are discussing this here today because it arrived on the front page of HN today. We are not a triage team - we are a bunch of people trying to understand the world better. Kindness goes a long way to understanding - if you want people to see things from your side, I suggest not attacking their questions but instead question their views.

Re: Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pay August rent

#247

Post by TomSwirly »

just-juan-post wrote: post #160
MiroF wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Study Finds Most Restaurants Fail Within First Year Of It Becoming Illegal To Go To Them Even without these laws, personal decisions would have decimated the business regardless. Even in places didn't shut down, patronage plummeted.

If people are scared and won't go to restaurants and bars then why continue to keep them closed? You are saying that patronage is already down so why even restrict them? Give people and businesses a choice in the matter. This is about letting individuals and businesses make their own decisions without the government forcing them to close.

Epidemiology is not accomplished by allowing people to make personal choices, because your average guy has no understanding of either epidemiology or statistics.

As we have already seen, what actually happens is that a small number of people with vocal delusional beliefs do wildly risky things that endangers everyone else.

Re: Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pay August rent

#248

Post by TomSwirly »

just-juan-post wrote: post #183
dwaltrip wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn’t about people making decisions for themselves. It’s about preventing the spread of infectious disease. You might be fine, but if you are asymptomatic, you can directly harm or kill others and not even know it. That being said, I’m not sure what the best policy is. It doesn’t seem feasible to have a complete lockdown that extends for many months. So we have to be clever, keep learning, and find good solution…

> This isn’t about people making decisions for themselves Making decisions for ones self is exactly the principal that the USA was founded on. > You might be fine, but if you are asymptomatic, you can directly harm or kill others and not even know it. See also: Drinking, condom-less sex, smoking, and junk food. All of these things directly or indirectly harm others and if this is about public safety then it's time yo…

> The "you may be hurting people indirectly" argument never worked and it's getting more brittle with time.

The United States has 25% of the world's COVID deaths and 5% of the population.

In fact, wilful ignorance DOES hurt people.

Re: Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pay August rent

#249

Post by 666lumberjack »

just-juan-post wrote: post #202
watwut wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If people are scared and won't go to restaurants If people are responsible and won't go to restaurants ... Or long form: If people know there is infectious disease around with asymptomatic transmission and rationally decide not to go to restaurant to ... Framing does a lot.

> If people are responsible and won't go to restaurants See here's the thing: Just because you and others like you have a certain definition of "responsible" doesn't mean it should or does apply to everyone. Should we ban skydiving because it's irresponsible? Condom-less sex? This is about choice. Re-open and let people and businesses choose. Have a laugh with me tonight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXWhbUUE4ko

If it were possible to ensure everyone who would potentially be exposed to covid-19 as a result of your decision to engage in high-risk activities had given informed consent, I'd be fine with letting people decide for themselves.

Since that isn't the case, your comparison is patently absurd. Skydiving isn't contagious.

Re: Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pay August rent

#250

Post by TomSwirly »

just-juan-post wrote: post #233
ehnto wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drink driving is banned, smoking is banned in many situations and only thanks to tobacco lobbies and tax income is it not entirely banned. Having sex doesn't affect passers by, just the active participants. Junk food you choose to eat yourself, you don't hurt others with it. It can cost taxpayer dollars in medical funding though, if you want to take that angle. There are hundreds of laws to stop people from making ch…

> Drink driving is banned Yet it still happens and claims innocent victims. > smoking is banned in many situations Yet it still happens and claims innocent victims. > Having sex doesn't affect passers by, just the active participants By making protection mandatory we keep people safe and healthy. > Junk food you choose to eat yourself As stated earlier it has been repeatedly shown that obesity is a social disease. I…

> > Drink driving is banned > Yet it still happens and claims innocent victims. [...] This is about choice.

So there should be no drunk driving laws "because choice"?

Your argument really does seem to be, "Laws are worthless, because people break them", because you repeat it several times.

> This isn't a pandemic. It's a panicdemic.

I would be ashamed if I had written what you had written.

Where are your rational arguments? Where are your links to peer reviewed papers? Where is the moral, rational or intellectual integrity here?

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