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Online Cash Bitcoin could Challenge Governments, Banks

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Re: Online Cash Bitcoin could Challenge Governments, Banks

#131

Post by joe_the_user »

sage_joch wrote: post #45

I think the main takeaway is that governments are making a strong case for an alternative, decentralized currency: * preventing transactions they don't agree with * inflating savings away * freezing bank accounts of adversaries * seizing cash at security checkpoints

The problem is that since an alternative currency is still pretty purely hypothetical, we don't know with any certainty that it wouldn't be subject to similar abuses.

Moreover, aside from inflation, the other abuses you list are essentially abuses of power and if governments maintain power - their official monopoly of force and violence, they will continue to be able to engage in these other actions.

EI, I don't think there is any imaginable electronic currency that couldn't be "taken" from you if a group of armed men burst in, seized your computer and demanded your passwords. And if bitcoins became ubiquitous, the state certainly would believe that you owed taxes on your bitcoin transactions and it would send it's armed-men to collect.

Edit: grammar

Re: Online Cash Bitcoin could Challenge Governments, Banks

#134

Post by waynerad »

tlrobinson wrote: post #132
waynerad wrote: post #129

Someone tell my why the US government can't just demand ISP's block the protocol that Bitcoin uses?

Encryption, port randomization, etc

So, every x days, every user of the currency in the country has to upgrade their software, because the government has blocked the protocol, so they need new software that in essence uses a different protocol???

If using this currency is that inconvenient, people will just go back to using credit cards and Paypal.

Re: Online Cash Bitcoin could Challenge Governments, Banks

#135

Post by euccastro »

ZitchDog wrote: post #97
powertower wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speculation is exactly what is required for Bitcoin to take hold as a legitimate currency. Without speculation it's a product/service no one wants (because it has no value or potential), by definition. Before today Bitcoin was "just" interesting to me, after reading this I now see the potential it has. I think I'm going to run an experiment and also accept payment for my product in Bitcoins: http://www.devside.net/se…

I fundamentally disagree. The purpose of currency is to facilitate efficient trade. It is dangerous when currency is seen as an appreciating asset (deflation) as this will encourage hoarding (speculation) and discourage spending and investing.

This is aggravated, in the long run, by the fact that they intend to support/incentivate the people who run nodes by transaction fees. Another friction factor.

It would be better to have small, fixed, predictable inflation, and pay the infrastructure with that (that is, with the newly generated money).

It worked in ancient Egypt. There was a currency that was more or less a receipt on stored grain. That "money" lost value over time due to storage costs and loss to decay and rodents. That inflation stimulated trade.

Currencies with so-called demurrage worked wonders in middle-century central Europe until they were banned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demurrage_%28currency%29

(I'm basically parroting Bernard Lietaer [which google for] here.)

Re: Online Cash Bitcoin could Challenge Governments, Banks

#136

Post by getsat »

ender7 wrote: post #127
lhnn wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) That's the point. It wants to be similar to gold. We traded based on a third party commodity (gold/silver) until 1974 and did alright. 2) So? I don't see your point. The goal of BTC is not to eliminate fees, but to make digital currency that you can use P2P. 3) I don't think government currencies are going away any time soon, but BTC provide an alternative.

1). Ah, if that's the goal then...great I guess. I personally don't think moving back to a commodity currency is a good idea, but that is perhaps another discussion. 2). I've heard a number of Bitcoin enthusiasts state this as an advantage/goal (even in this discussion), who perhaps have started developing their own ideas about what bc should be used for. 3). But an alternative to what purpose? Say that I believe str…

1) You won't have to worry about the quantitative easing when you're not using a fiat currency. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTUY16CkS-k

2) Read "A Lodging of Wayfaring Men". Fiction, but an example of the kind of change a system like BTC could usher in. http://agorism.info/_media/a-lodging-of-wayfaring-men.pdf

3) You'd only convert as much as you need.

> Is transferring BCs easier than writing a check?

Yes. Enter address, enter amount, click send, wait a few minutes for the network to confirm the transaction.

Re: Online Cash Bitcoin could Challenge Governments, Banks

#137

Post by DiabloD3 »

For those that think Bitcoin has no purpose, what about all the small time FOSS authors out there who are, frankly, scared shitless of Paypal coming in and closing their account?

Bitcoin is perfect for stuff like this.

And if you think Bitcoin is a waste, feel free to send your coins to 1DbeWKCxnVCt3sRaSAmZLoboqr8pVyFzP1

Re: Online Cash Bitcoin could Challenge Governments, Banks

#138

Post by getsat »

waynerad wrote: post #134
tlrobinson wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Encryption, port randomization, etc

So, every x days, every user of the currency in the country has to upgrade their software, because the government has blocked the protocol, so they need new software that in essence uses a different protocol??? If using this currency is that inconvenient, people will just go back to using credit cards and Paypal.

I don't have to download a new copy of uTorrent if I decide to use different ports.

The client could probably just check periodically for a signed message from a central server (or a broadcast on the network itself) with instructions to currently operate on the network.

This isn't really a big deal or usability issue that I can see.

Re: Online Cash Bitcoin could Challenge Governments, Banks

#139

Post by mike_esspe »

joe_the_user wrote: post #131
sage_joch wrote: post #45

I think the main takeaway is that governments are making a strong case for an alternative, decentralized currency: * preventing transactions they don't agree with * inflating savings away * freezing bank accounts of adversaries * seizing cash at security checkpoints

The problem is that since an alternative currency is still pretty purely hypothetical, we don't know with any certainty that it wouldn't be subject to similar abuses. Moreover, aside from inflation, the other abuses you list are essentially abuses of power and if governments maintain power - their official monopoly of force and violence, they will continue to be able to engage in these other actions. EI, I don't thin…

If I'm not mistaken, at least in US you can't be forced to reveal your password?

Re: Online Cash Bitcoin could Challenge Governments, Banks

#140

Post by gaius »

pyre wrote: post #81
weavejester wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can send bitcoins directly to a person's account without going through an intermediary, such as Paypal or a bank. This means that it would potentially be cheaper, but more importantly it would be easier to automate, and easier to start up interesting financial web apps.

Exactly. The vendor wouldn't be paying the tithe to the credit card processor.

I can already do free transfers to anyone's bank account: it's called BACS, every UK bank account supports sending and receiving BACS transfers, the vast majority through a web interface. Takes 3 days, but who cares?
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