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My least favorite Rust type

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Re: My least favorite Rust type

#111

Post by ratww »

the_hoser wrote: post #99
ratww wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's his hobby/passion project, I really don't understand your objection. You seem to have a problem with the fact he criticises other languages. Would you also treat someone who isn't currently designing a language with the same harshness if they also criticised a language the way Jonathan Blow does?

If they're claiming to be a PL designer when doing so? Yeah, probably.

But he is designing a programming language. Even if it's all a fantasy or a Python script, like you claim, there's still a design.

His opinions and views on PL design are still up to scrutiny, so it's not a glass house like you claim. PL design is not compiler writing. You're free to implement all his ideas and write a Jai compiler yourself if you need a proper compiler in your hands to properly criticise the language.

And frankly, the only thing mentioned on this thread about "80% features" is not as controversial as you're making it. Nobody here is claiming it as revolutionary or game-changing, so even if you're right, your posts are a bit uncalled for.

Re: My least favorite Rust type

#112

Post by akiselev »

sushisource wrote: post #68
josefx wrote: post #44

> Range requires the borrow, so the vastly more common Range etc. So I have no idea about rust, but in c++ a big feature of templated code is that you can make type appropriate specializations, is that not possible in Rust or did its standard library maintainers just sleep on the job?

"Sleep on the job" might be a bit unfair. Specialization doesn't exist but is in the works.

It's been in the works for years and there's no end in sight. IIRC sound specialization might not be possible until some precursor work for GATs is complete.

Last I checked (a month or two ago), the specialization feature warning even included a bit about how it can crash the compiler (the crashes were the reason I gave up on specialization two years ago)

Edit: Turns out theres been some progress since I used it last! Feature `min_specialization` seems to not be a non-crashing subset of specialization [1]

[1] https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/pull/68970

Re: My least favorite Rust type

#113

Post by kolbe »

the_hoser wrote: post #17
adamnemecek wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should take him seriously, he has some really good ideas.

He has some really good fantasies. But all he has is words.

I know nothing about the discussion of whoever this dude is, but I am very impressed that HN hasn’t rate limited your comments with all the grey I’m seeing.

Re: My least favorite Rust type

#114

Post by the_hoser »

mkishi wrote: post #106
the_hoser wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If he doesn't feel like public feedback would be helpful, then why is he streaming about it? That doesn't make any sense at all. I'm not entitled to shit, but he's also not entitled to a platform. He's a game designer. He's released games. If he wants to talk about games design, I'm all ears.

> If he doesn't feel like public feedback would be helpful, then why is he streaming about it? That doesn't make any sense at all. He _does_ take feedback from the public. That is, from people who take him seriously and participate in the conversation. The compiler _is_ released in a closed beta. You could be a part of that if you were a productive voice in his language design discussions. Instead, you're condescendi…

> He _does_ take feedback from the public. That is, from people who take him seriously and participate in the conversation.

I've only ever seen him cut people down. Then again, I haven't watched every minute of his streams. Maybe he's found good drugs lately.

> The compiler _is_ released in a closed beta. You could be a part of that if you were a productive voice in his language design discussions.

So, no link?

> Instead, you're condescending

Again, have you every actually listened to Johnathan? And you call me condescending?

Wow...

> Why would _anyone_ want to hear your ideas on their language if you believe these statements?

I have no idea. I haven't used the language, so I don't have any feedback to give.

> He's provided hours and hours of discussion on Jai and language design, explained most decisions he's taken and changes he's made since the inception of the language, documented the language's journey, _paid_ for people to work on the language, and we get to read "he could be faking it?" Yeah, he faked compiling programs with literal input from Twitch chat.

I'm not saying it's likely. I'm saying it's possible.

> The guy's a magician, not a programmer.

You DO know that it's the job of magicians to fool people, right?

In that, we might actually agree.

Re: My least favorite Rust type

#115

Post by saagarjha »

the_hoser wrote: post #105
saagarjha wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Modern C is very different from K&R C. Aside from some syntax around function prototypes, it's really not, unless you are counting "people tend to use certain things less often" as how you're counting that difference.

You are aware that the standard library is a big part of the C specification, right?

If you're counting the language by "how many pages of specification" it takes up, perhaps. To me is the language is really like the many features it had when it came out, and then the standard library improvements since then have been "string routines" and then "more string routines" and then "atomics, and also some string routines". Now C++, that's a language that has changed a huge deal–your C++03 code is obviously out-of-place in a C++11 codebase, but nobody will bat an eye if you drop some C89 code in a C11 project.

Re: My least favorite Rust type

#116

Post by dgellow »

the_hoser wrote: post #65
ratww wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm also not a fan of closed-source compilers (or fully closed, even worse), but it's unfair to disregard his work and opinions just because it's not publicly available. Regardless of that, this is not a discussion about compilers or compiler design/programming, but rather about PL design, which are two different areas and disciplines.

I'd even take a closed-source compiler. The problem is that, ultimately, he's effectively throwing rocks from a glass house, but he denies us the rocks to throw back. I just can't take him seriously.

It's currently in private beta as far as I remember from his Twitter timeline.

Re: My least favorite Rust type

#117

Post by jakelazaroff »

the_hoser wrote: post #93
jakelazaroff wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's a really toxic attitude. My thoughts about programming languages are still valid, even though I've never made one of my own. I have opinions about what works and what doesn't, based on experience using programming languages, and just because I haven't actually tried to write a compiler doesn't mean I should "shut up" about it. If you don't like his ideas (or him) just ignore them. No one's forcing you…

I do ignore him. I was only pointing out that I don't take him seriously, in response to referencing him.

Take him however you wish; I don't follow him or know the backstory here. But adopting a "put up or shut up" attitude makes it less likely that people excited about something will share it, especially if they're newer or less experienced. That sucks. We should try to make the tech community a welcoming place that fosters enthusiasm.

Re: My least favorite Rust type

#118

Post by the_hoser »

saagarjha wrote: post #115
the_hoser wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are aware that the standard library is a big part of the C specification, right?

If you're counting the language by "how many pages of specification" it takes up, perhaps. To me is the language is really like the many features it had when it came out, and then the standard library improvements since then have been "string routines" and then "more string routines" and then "atomics, and also some string routines". Now C++, that's a language that has changed a huge deal–your C++03 code is obviously…

It sounds like you actually haven't been using C for very long, if that's what you think standard library changes amounted to.

By your definition, it hasn't changed too much since the release of B in 1969.

Re: My least favorite Rust type

#119

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o »

leshow wrote: post #88
jakelazaroff wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's a really toxic attitude. My thoughts about programming languages are still valid, even though I've never made one of my own. I have opinions about what works and what doesn't, based on experience using programming languages, and just because I haven't actually tried to write a compiler doesn't mean I should "shut up" about it. If you don't like his ideas (or him) just ignore them. No one's forcing you…

I think it's toxic to suggest your way or ideas are better without giving people any way to verify that they are. Of course anyone can have an opinion about anything.

Doesn't that attitude make your comment toxic? The dude's allowed to share ideas.

Re: My least favorite Rust type

#120

Post by the_hoser »

fsociety wrote: post #110
the_hoser wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that's all that he did, then I'd have no concerns. He likes to talk down other up-coming programming languages, too. But they've got something his language doesn't.

Did he say something that offended you? He shares his opinions to people who ask about it. Often his opinions are shared on his livestream - which is an environment he ultimately owns. I’m a bit shocked at your attitude with this. Your conviction is unnerving. The existence of jai doesn’t prevent the existence of Rust or other languages.

He's said a lot of of things that I've found offensive.

I don't have a problem with the alleged existence of Jai.

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