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My least favorite Rust type

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Re: My least favorite Rust type

#101

Post by jakelazaroff »

leshow wrote: post #88
jakelazaroff wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's a really toxic attitude. My thoughts about programming languages are still valid, even though I've never made one of my own. I have opinions about what works and what doesn't, based on experience using programming languages, and just because I haven't actually tried to write a compiler doesn't mean I should "shut up" about it. If you don't like his ideas (or him) just ignore them. No one's forcing you…

I think it's toxic to suggest your way or ideas are better without giving people any way to verify that they are. Of course anyone can have an opinion about anything.

"Better" is subjective, not something that can be verified. But anyway, people do have a way to try out an idea: they can implement it themselves!

Re: My least favorite Rust type

#102

Post by kibwen »

cryptonector wrote: post #81
JoshTriplett wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to see RangeInclusive fixed in the manner described. Part of what's blocking such a fix is that we have hard backwards compatibility guarantees. We'd have to do some kind of edition-based transition, where ranges start desugaring to a different type in a new edition than they did in the previous edition. We could do that, and there are various discussions going on to consider such approaches, but we're somew…

Then again, there's no Rust ABI...

The lack of a stable Rust ABI doesn't have any relation to the ability to evolve the Range type.

Re: My least favorite Rust type

#103

Post by saagarjha »

the_hoser wrote: post #97
saagarjha wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C was largely "finished" when it came out–future additions have not added much. And by "finished" I don't mean "never changes", I mean "finished enough for a 1.0".

That's not true at all. Modern C is very different from K&R C. It took 10 years for ANSI C (which is more or less what we know as C today) to be established. And embarrassingly longer for that standard to be widely implemented...

> Modern C is very different from K&R C.

Aside from some syntax around function prototypes, it's really not, unless you are counting "people tend to use certain things less often" as how you're counting that difference.

Re: My least favorite Rust type

#104

Post by edflsafoiewq »

josefx wrote: post #44

> Range requires the borrow, so the vastly more common Range etc. So I have no idea about rust, but in c++ a big feature of templated code is that you can make type appropriate specializations, is that not possible in Rust or did its standard library maintainers just sleep on the job?

Rust has specialization but I don't think you can change the signature like that. In C++ of course it's the callee that decides how arguments are passed.

But it would also be uncommon in C++ to specialize to pass by value. Generic code normally just passes T by reference, ex. max, push_back. Since this is transparent to the caller in C++ though, you don't have to write the &s.

Re: My least favorite Rust type

#105

Post by the_hoser »

saagarjha wrote: post #103
the_hoser wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not true at all. Modern C is very different from K&R C. It took 10 years for ANSI C (which is more or less what we know as C today) to be established. And embarrassingly longer for that standard to be widely implemented...

> Modern C is very different from K&R C. Aside from some syntax around function prototypes, it's really not, unless you are counting "people tend to use certain things less often" as how you're counting that difference.

You are aware that the standard library is a big part of the C specification, right?

Re: My least favorite Rust type

#106

Post by mkishi »

the_hoser wrote: post #55
gpm wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can make a python script that prints out stuff while I'm streaming, too. I really doubt this. The amount of effort and acting that would need to go into being able to script in advance the sort of mistakes you make when programming would be astronomic. You would have to never make a typo when you weren't supposed to, always make a typo when you are, somehow deal with the fact that when you get stuck you need to b…

If he doesn't feel like public feedback would be helpful, then why is he streaming about it? That doesn't make any sense at all. I'm not entitled to shit, but he's also not entitled to a platform. He's a game designer. He's released games. If he wants to talk about games design, I'm all ears.

> If he doesn't feel like public feedback would be helpful, then why is he streaming about it? That doesn't make any sense at all.

He _does_ take feedback from the public. That is, from people who take him seriously and participate in the conversation.

The compiler _is_ released in a closed beta. You could be a part of that if you were a productive voice in his language design discussions.

Instead, you're condescending:

> I can make a python script that prints out stuff while I'm streaming, too. He hasn't demonstrated squat.

> He's a game designer. He's released games. If he wants to talk about games design, I'm all ears.

Why would _anyone_ want to hear your ideas on their language if you believe these statements?

He's provided hours and hours of discussion on Jai and language design, explained most decisions he's taken and changes he's made since the inception of the language, documented the language's journey, _paid_ for people to work on the language, and we get to read "he could be faking it?" Yeah, he faked compiling programs with literal input from Twitch chat. The guy's a magician, not a programmer.

Re: My least favorite Rust type

#107

Post by fsociety »

the_hoser wrote: post #63
spatulon wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you think of a less snarky way of saying that he hasn't released it publicly yet?

Nope. I'm hoping one day that they do. I don't pay attention to Jai anymore, and I'm hoping someone hits me with a link.

They are currently closed beta testing the compiler, but it isn’t an abstract or imaginary thing.. he works with it all the time on his livestreams on Twitch.

Re: My least favorite Rust type

#108

Post by the_hoser »

fsociety wrote: post #107
the_hoser wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. I'm hoping one day that they do. I don't pay attention to Jai anymore, and I'm hoping someone hits me with a link.

They are currently closed beta testing the compiler, but it isn’t an abstract or imaginary thing.. he works with it all the time on his livestreams on Twitch.

So... no link yet.

Re: My least favorite Rust type

#109

Post by macintux »

the_hoser wrote: post #93
jakelazaroff wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's a really toxic attitude. My thoughts about programming languages are still valid, even though I've never made one of my own. I have opinions about what works and what doesn't, based on experience using programming languages, and just because I haven't actually tried to write a compiler doesn't mean I should "shut up" about it. If you don't like his ideas (or him) just ignore them. No one's forcing you…

I do ignore him. I was only pointing out that I don't take him seriously, in response to referencing him.

For someone who ignores him you’re spending a lot of time (27 comments on this post) griping about him.

Re: My least favorite Rust type

#110

Post by fsociety »

the_hoser wrote: post #80
hobofan wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a PL designer, but from everything I've heard him say regarding PL design, I agree with your assessment that one probably shouldn't take PL design advice from him (or at the least take them with a grain of salt). However I don't think there is any need to suggest he's a "fraud", the language is "fantasy" or faked for the stream. I also don't think that there is any need for him to release the compiler. Have y…

If that's all that he did, then I'd have no concerns. He likes to talk down other up-coming programming languages, too. But they've got something his language doesn't.

Did he say something that offended you? He shares his opinions to people who ask about it. Often his opinions are shared on his livestream - which is an environment he ultimately owns.

I’m a bit shocked at your attitude with this. Your conviction is unnerving. The existence of jai doesn’t prevent the existence of Rust or other languages.

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