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Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

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Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#221

Post by nwienert »

raincom wrote: post #218
nwienert wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, except direct democracy leads to government scope creep, if you want that, move to Europe and get nannied. I don’t see us anywhere near a failed experiment and until anyone can make that case strongly, changing our fundamental structure is off the table. 3rd highest GDP per capita, most innovative country by far, extremely high tourism rate, most diverse country in multiple ways, consistently expanding healthcar…

"Scope creep" is orthogonal to the issue Rousseau raised: representative democracy is a form of slavery. And in this slavery, masters are law makers; slaves are 99% of the population. The beneficiaries are K-street people, the elite from media, c-suites, politicians, the super wealthy, etc.

The representatives are the slaves, if anything. Look how they can’t even keep their own opinions, they are forced to change to appease their base. Obama was against gay marriage. He wasn’t “free” to keep believing that: if he didn’t stop believing it, he was out. Period. Who is the slave? And it isn’t just rhetoric. If they don’t pass laws the people want, they’re out. Sure, they can enrich their cronies along the way. But you’re painting it way too black and white.

I do agree that K street holds too much power, not politicians. And politicians aren’t totally corrupt, just about half or so.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#222

Post by arcticbull »

0xy wrote: post #219
arcticbull wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment won’t look good on you in a few years, I’m sure, and it reminds me of the kind of things people used to say about accepting women into the armed forces. You pass basic training just the same so half your arguments are null right there. If you can’t pass basic training they don’t care what’s between your legs, you’re going home.

Basic training doesn't disqualify you for some of those risks.

Basic training ensures that some of those risks do not apply.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#223

Post by arcticbull »

nwienert wrote: post #208
arcticbull wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m arguing if you set the rhetoric aside the party platforms are largely the same. The Overton window is shifted so far to the right in the US the two parties are basically “right or center-right,” and “far right.” There is no left. From a purely policy perspective they’re very similar. There are clear and obvious differences in how the party operates and which side is on team Science for instance, but the core poli…

Strong disagree. I don’t get this line of reasoning at all. First of all you have multiple factions within each party that strongly disagree - on the left it ranges from extreme socialists to populist liberals (in decline) to neolibs and hawks. You had Bernie almost winning the primaries this year. On the right you have tea party libertarians, you have evangelicals, you have national populists now, and you have your…

This is what I mean by the Overton window being shifted so far right. There are no "extreme socialists" in the Democratic wing. AOC is center-left, Bernie is pretty much center.

"Extreme socialist" would be arguing that the state should own the means of production. Until AOC starts arguing for nationalizing Google as a means of making core internet infrastructure public, for instance, I wouldn't worry about the "extreme socialists."

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#224

Post by 0xy »

arcticbull wrote: post #222
0xy wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basic training doesn't disqualify you for some of those risks.

Basic training ensures that some of those risks do not apply.

How does basic training eliminate suicide ideation?

Do you think basic training is enough to identify the risks associated with the bone density loss seen in some clinical transgender treatments? My understanding is that problems associated with that side effect could manifest at any time.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#225

Post by fulafel »

arcticbull wrote: post #77
lionkor wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with what you said, yet can't help but think that everyone who knows about this kind of thing and still doesn't think twice about which party to vote for, is responsible in some way. Every american is given a voice, to vote for the best party, the best candidate, based on what they know and believe. Voting is anonymous. You dont have to tell anyone what you voted for. Vote for a third party, or for whatever y…

John Adams and George Washington believed a two-party state was a major threat to democracy, and it's pretty easy to see why. The reality is Democrats and Republicans are about 6 inches apart on every single major issue. Compare the platforms of the "left" and "right" here to other major democracies worldwide, and you'll see. Things are a little different with the current administration, but even that, the concrete p…

But this is just about to what works to get votes.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#226

Post by nwienert »

arcticbull wrote: post #223
nwienert wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strong disagree. I don’t get this line of reasoning at all. First of all you have multiple factions within each party that strongly disagree - on the left it ranges from extreme socialists to populist liberals (in decline) to neolibs and hawks. You had Bernie almost winning the primaries this year. On the right you have tea party libertarians, you have evangelicals, you have national populists now, and you have your…

This is what I mean by the Overton window being shifted so far right. There are no "extreme socialists" in the Democratic wing. AOC is center-left, Bernie is pretty much center. "Extreme socialist" would be arguing that the state should own the means of production. Until AOC starts arguing for nationalizing Google as a means of making core internet infrastructure public, for instance, I wouldn't worry about the "extr…

Wealth taxes, free college, universal healthcare, universal basic income. All things unthinkable for a politician to platform on 20 years ago.

Ok, four major leftward shifts the party is embracing, could easily name more. Can you name some things we’ve moved right on?

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#227

Post by torified »

lionkor wrote: post #68
tda wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

German here - I absolutely agree. I think the way Hitler rose to power is such an important piece of history. Nazi germany wasnt the first country to act like that. They didnt invent torture or mass killings, genocide, etc. It had happened before, everyone knew it, everyone knew that it can happen. And yet they voted blindly and thought "ah, well, it wont happen here". And low and behold, a few years later it does. I…

Look at what the US is already doing. Torture, secret "trials", spying, internment camps, zero judicial oversight.

It's very dangerously close already, it's only a matter of time until those in power finally take the thin mask off.

Won't the citizens be surprised! Fox news never warned us of this!

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#228

Post by saiya-jin »

starfleet_bop wrote: post #147
saiya-jin wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take an inspiration from countries that get proper democracy right - like Switzerland. You can have public vote on anything, just gather enough signatures and it will happen. Result will be binding to government, whatever it means. This of course relies on population to be at least slightly smart and not dumb herd of easy to manipulate sheeps, but that's a basic premise of democracy in general.

Yeah, try Googling Swiss Nazi gold before advocating Swiss governance as a model to uphold.

That's a rather childish erosion of a topic discussed, I presume you don't have anything substantial to add. Currently its the most free country in the world on many levels, and it shows in many aspects like people happiness, low criminality etc.

As for WWII, try to come up with something deeper than parroting this, ie how Swiss took tons of refugees that would face deportation and death, while being surrounded by Axis from all directions. How they decided to stop at one point because they didn't have enough food to feed their population, but Geneva canton kept taking refugees in regardless. They helped Allies' secret services with undermining axis in numerous ways, ie keeping the post in Campione d'Italia to subvert Duce's regime.

Its way more than many other 'neutral' countries done during WWII. And mistakes they made, they owned them, admitted them and paid compensations. What more do you want?

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#229

Post by tripzilch »

yodsanklai wrote: post #30
doublesCs wrote: post #26

> The European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) confirmed nine years after that El Masri was “severely beaten, sodomized, shackled, and hooded, and subjected total sensory deprivation—carried out in the presence of state officials of Macedonia and within its jurisdiction.” > Macedonia’s “government was consequently responsible for those acts performed by foreign officials…Those measures had been used with premeditation,…

I totally agree. First, many Americans don't support these acts, it's just beyond their control. And others do support them but either minimize them or believe they are justified for a greater good. And a lot are totally clueless and just have no idea of what's going on. There's a lot of propaganda, poor education and lack of information in the US. Just watch a presidential debate, it's a joke.

Sorry who actually believes someone was sodomised for the greater good?!!

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#230

Post by foxyv »

tripzilch wrote: post #229
yodsanklai wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree. First, many Americans don't support these acts, it's just beyond their control. And others do support them but either minimize them or believe they are justified for a greater good. And a lot are totally clueless and just have no idea of what's going on. There's a lot of propaganda, poor education and lack of information in the US. Just watch a presidential debate, it's a joke.

Sorry who actually believes someone was sodomised for the greater good?!!

You would be surprised. There is a strong vein of jingoism running through the US that wants to see this sort of stuff. They believe that, by being harsh against domestic and foreign enemies of the United States, we can assert our position of dominance on the world stage. Just check out bumper stickers on pickup trucks in Texas.
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