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Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

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Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well this is the situation we're in because everyone since Bush abused executive orders. Obama's DACA order is a great example. It grants "Equitable Entitlements," which are pretty much Unalienable Rights. Imagine if a president after Lincoln decided that they were going to reverse the Emancipation Proclamation. Would they be in authority to do so? Probably. But you're taking away rights at that point. DACA promised…

> Imagine if a president after Lincoln decided that they were going to reverse the Emancipation Proclamation. Would they be in authority to do so? Probably. But you're taking away rights at that point. The emancipation proclamation was in no way a binding document. It was simply a "proclamation" of the stated position of the executive branch regarding slavery during Lincoln's administration, that they would cease to…

> The emancipation proclamation was in no way a binding document.

It was a wartime military order during a war in which much of the relevant part of the country came under military occupation. It absolutely was binding.

> It was simply a "proclamation" of the stated position of the executive branch regarding slavery during Lincoln's administration, that they would cease to recognize its' legitimacy as law.

Not only was it not only that, it wasn't at all that. It was an order applied to the rebel territory then under occupation and other rebel territory as it came under occupation.

> The 13th amendment, (an act of congress which created a new law),

The 13th Amendment, as the name suggests, was a Constitutional Amendment. It was proposed to the States by an Act of Congress, but new law was created by ratification by the states. But most slaves were actually freed by the military occupation under the emancipation proclamation, not the 13th Amendment.

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#302
I really don't understand how they thought this would work.

If they at least wanted to be consistent they should have banned smartphone chat apps (and there are some good reasons to do this.) That probably still wouldn't have been legal because of the free speech thing.

I wish there was something decent I could recommend to people but Apple has done a fantastic job of killing internet chat apps.

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#303
post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not Chinese, but I do fear what I say on wechat because I know there’s a possibility I’ll be blocked from entering China again, or worse, blocked from exiting. I also fear what I say on American sites for similar reasons, and because I’ve dealt with normal people trying to hunt me down just because of online comments.

As far as I know, Chinese government doesn't ask for your social media accounts but the US does. https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/News/visas-news/2...

china probably doesn’t need to ask. They already know who you are and what your social media is.

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#304

Honest question for Chinese users of WeChat: have you ever thought twice about WeChat posts and communications, whether they'll be deemed "acceptable" to censors? Everyone I know self-censors nearly constantly, if unconsciously. A good example: in a discussion of this case I was reading today in Chinese the author ironically noted that he couldn't summarize the US government's position because in a large WeChat group…

I've noticed the use of WeChat has changed quite a bit for over the past 4 years:

Use of the 'Moments' function (a photo-orientated miniblog) that was quite popular when WeChat was newer has declined significantly and is not mainly focused on self-promotion (selling products, often food products) via WeChat, the odd personal post, photos of the odd teambuilding exercise. Groups popular for colleagues, ex-colleagues, ex-classmates to keep in contact with each other, even this use-case has been cracked down on especially international companies. The demographic for these friends/colleagues is mainly 20s-40s professionals in business services or IT; out of ~500 contacts there'll typically be 10-15 Moment posts. In chats people ask about VPNs and such things offline.

Political discussion for younger people happens much more on Weibo than WeChat.

For older people I see using on the bus or subway Groups are still a big social thing, and this group isn't going to be very anti-government as they're the generation that's benefited from the housing and associated booms of the last couple of decades.

Two anecdotes that partially answer your question.

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is 100% the US foreign policy community saying we want 100% control over what US persons see. They've been waging a similar assault on RT. If you think Google, Facebook, et al aren't deeply intertwined with the US state and consult regularly with the pentagon, you haven't been watching the news. Believe it or not, US foreign policy people put out enormous amounts of propaganda and they got the US to repeal a ban…

Considering RT is the propaganda arm of the Russian government, I don't blame them. That's like saying Russia is bad because they want to hamper Voice of America or the Ad Council.

It is, but at the same time the US government is so easy to criticize that much of RT's coverage is simply stating things that aren't widely disseminated because they are embarrassing and make fools of the people running US foreign policy. I won't say that RT coverage of Russia specifically won't have a slant, but foreign coverage of your country has the chance to be more honest in some regards because they are not under the same power structure.

The fact that we regard their coverage as propaganda and not ours is quite telling given the entanglements between government and the media here, the ownership by a small group of large corporations, and the ability of larger corporations to yank ad dollars when they hear something they don't like.

The only honest position imo is to allow all comers to state their viewpoint, which is the foundation of liberal democracy and enshrined in the first amendment. Just keep their viewpoint in mind when watching as you would for an American network. Also, don't just accept something because someone authoritative said something, it has to fit into a logical picture of the world.

We're not at war with Russia lol and god help us if we were. They have nukes!

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#306
post #269

I think it's easy to say the ban doesn't make sense when it is perhaps a preventative measure. We have seen social networks take over others many times in terms of popularity. If TikTok and WeChat's usage becomes more widespread in the voting population of the US, they would have a lot of influence by controlling what kind of content its users sees; e.g., FB has been criticized many times for this, namely performing…

> The difference between TikTok and WeChat and FB/Google/Twitter is obvious: the former are to some degree controlled by China and the latter are private entities. The irony is that we were just about to witness US govt forcing said "private entities" to ban specific applications.

Except WeChat is a nation state owned actor. So it's completely different. It's like executing a trade embargo with a foreign nation instead of physical goods it's a digital service provided by a nation state.

They're completely different.

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if you get to have it both ways without trampling on WeChat's first amendment rights as well as those of their users unless you pass data privacy laws for US citizens/persons (which might have first amendment implications anyway) and deal with WeChat through whatever mechanisms this newly-passed (and yet-to-be created) privacy law contains. So either WeChat, Facebook, and whoever can facilitate protected…

> trampling on WeChat's first amendment rights As a non-American, my question is why does WeChat have first amendment rights? It's not an American company.

Trampling on WeChat users' first amendment rights would be a violation. Many of the users are American citizens, like myself. I'd like to talk to my grandparents and cousins in China. They don't or can't use other social networks, so WeChat it is.

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#308
post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should read my profile. Thank you.

Single purpose accounts aren't ok on HN, and obviously not when the purpose is ideological battle, so we've banned this one. Please don't create accounts to break the site guidelines with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Oh dang!

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The difference between TikTok and WeChat and FB/Google/Twitter is obvious: the former are to some degree controlled by China and the latter are private entities. to some degree? No, they are completely controlled by China. > "WeChatApp spies on the content that all users send to each other, including Americans. The results are fed into their censorship of Chinese users" [1] - Key findings rom the Citizen lab researc…

And at the same time FB/Google/Twitter are controlled by US government. If they do something "wrong", they get called to Congress to talk and change their mind. This is not what a truly independent company would do. Truly independent company would tell Congress to mind their own business and not bother them.

Congress can't actually tell the companies what to do. They can call them to testify, and they are obligated to show up, but they can stonewall or spout PR, and Congress can't do anything.

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#310

Honest question for Chinese users of WeChat: have you ever thought twice about WeChat posts and communications, whether they'll be deemed "acceptable" to censors? Everyone I know self-censors nearly constantly, if unconsciously. A good example: in a discussion of this case I was reading today in Chinese the author ironically noted that he couldn't summarize the US government's position because in a large WeChat group…

No. I need it to conduct business, and that's more important to me than posting or discussing controversial topics. People in China literally do not use email, so this is the only effective method to get things done (which I'm totally ok with!). This ban would be an absolute disaster for me, given that my entire rolodex are WeChat contacts, not email addresses. I also feel for my friends who have family in China, and…

Maybe they will decouple the app from the backend. Publish the interface, set up an auth system and let the community build their own apps to interface with it.

That's the reason email still exists today and will continue to exist long after today's fad app goes out of style.

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