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Java Turns 25 – Whats Next? [pdf]

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Re: Java Turns 25 – Whats Next? [pdf]

#141

Post by philipkglass »

throwaway189262 wrote: post #131
philipkglass wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll shamefully admit that I have been running and writing JVM based services for years and I didn't know this. I thought that the fixed memory overhead for a simple JVM service was simply higher than with CPython as a fact of life. There are times when I'd happily trade more frequent GC pauses for a smaller per-process memory footprint. How do you find a reasonably small Xmx that doesn't lead to OutOfMemoryError exc…

> How do you find a reasonably small Xmx that doesn't lead to OutOfMemoryError exceptions? That's tough to figure out. In new versions of Java, I think 14+, if you use ZGC collector it will return unused memory to the OS. Memory options vary depending on collector, but new versions of ZGC support "soft max" heap size and uncommit. Together it might be close to what you're looking for https://malloc.se/blog/zgc-softma…

Thanks for the advice. I'm stuck on 11 until the next LTS release but I'll definitely be trying ZGC next year. (ZGC is in 11 but still marked experimental, and I'm conservative about making changes.)

Re: Java Turns 25 – Whats Next? [pdf]

#142

Post by lostcolony »

coldtea wrote: post #101
mrjoelkemp wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, Java as a web language is good when you don't need to really understand what's happening (like in low-traffic situations). If concurrency isn't an issue, then the massive amount of libraries can help you a lot. In high-traffic environments, that ignorance punishes you. I've always felt Java and the JVM are of the mindset that you need a Ph.D. to even understand how it works or how to configure it, and…

> In my opinion, Java as a web language is good when you don't need to really understand what's happening (like in low-traffic situations) Huh? Java is used in huge traffic backends, including HFT with minimal latencies acceptable all the way to Google and Twitter scale. If anything, Java is much more fast and low level than the typical languages used for huge high-traffic services -- Rails, Python, etc - never mind…

OP isn't comparing it to Rails, Python, etc. He's comparing it to Erlang.

ANd, to that, I'd agree. I've built high traffic stuff in Java. We built it, load tested it, it was terrible. After multiple rounds of profiling, tweaking GC settings, tweaking threadpool sizes, rewriting things to be async, finding out that a client library wasn't reusing connections properly, etc, we finally had acceptable performance...that still was less than I'd gotten out of the box in similar, IO bound services, written as unoptimized Erlang.

Re: Java Turns 25 – Whats Next? [pdf]

#143

Post by lostcolony »

miskin wrote: post #62
mrjoelkemp wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, Java as a web language is good when you don't need to really understand what's happening (like in low-traffic situations). If concurrency isn't an issue, then the massive amount of libraries can help you a lot. In high-traffic environments, that ignorance punishes you. I've always felt Java and the JVM are of the mindset that you need a Ph.D. to even understand how it works or how to configure it, and…

I believe there are few runtimes out there that have such a good monitoring and profiling tools for free and out of the box as Java. Java Flight Recorder, remote debugging and monitoring can be really useful for rare production performance issues.

It's funny you should mention that in response to a post talking about Erlang. :P Because, yes, there are few. The BEAM happens to be one that definitely beats the JVM on that front.

Re: Java Turns 25 – Whats Next? [pdf]

#144

Post by lostcolony »

CamouflagedKiwi wrote: post #27
yagodragon wrote: post #12

Java might be the most successful programming language. It is a solid choice among many different fields. It is used on huge infrastructure projects (Apache Foundation), governments, big tech companies such as amazon, ibm, google, apple for many large scale services. It can do web, ml, GUIs, it's still strong among academics. On top of that it offers a great programming experience with excellent IDE support and it's…

It's very widely used, that's for sure. But it's increasingly not a good choice - in the examples you give - web, ML, GUIs, it is not first class in any of those (and not near to it in the latter two). What's next for Java should be relatively little change; let a language like Kotlin without all the baggage be the way ahead on the JVM. There's a remarkably good compatibility story there; way better than basically an…

I like to think of Java as 'a reasonable choice for almost any problem'. Almost never the best one. If you're looking for a single language to standardize on for all the things corporate-wide, it makes sense. But don't lie to yourself thinking you've picked the best tool for any job.

Re: Java Turns 25 – Whats Next? [pdf]

#145

Post by Nursie »

gonzo41 wrote: post #9
mxschumacher wrote: post #2

Slightly tangential, but due to a new job I'll have bite the bullet and learn Java. When googling tutorials, I see the same material I found 12 years ago. A lot must have happened since then. What's a good resource to learn Java for somebody who already knows how to program? I'm interested in ecosystem, tooling, best practices, common pitfalls etc.

Everything is OpenJDK now, forget oracle. AWS put out LTS JRE's etc. Try and get your employer to pay for a jetbrains IDE, IntelliJ IDEA. Use Maven for builds. It's simple-ish. Use Spring for frameworks. Everything's been done so you wont be first with any problems here. And all the stuff from 12 years ago is probably what people know and do, so it's still on point. No one does inheritance anymore composition's all t…

I find gradle nicer than maven, though it can be more complex.

Does maven still have issues with snapshot builds and classpaths?

I've managed to avoid Spring, everyone I know that's worked with it complains it's difficult to work with.

For microservices I like simple, single-purpose pieces like sparkjava.

Re: Java Turns 25 – Whats Next? [pdf]

#146

Post by KptMarchewa »

pjmlp wrote: post #109
kumarm wrote: post #50

The biggest mistake Oracle did with Java was being hostile to Android community with the goal to extract some money from Google. A significant reason for Java to be relevant even today is Android.

The biggest mistake Google did was to screw Sun and not buying it when they had the opportunity to do so, most likely hoping it would sink without a hiss.

Both comments are true.

Re: Java Turns 25 – Whats Next? [pdf]

#147

Post by deepakarora3 »

mrjoelkemp wrote: post #32
yagodragon wrote: post #12

Java might be the most successful programming language. It is a solid choice among many different fields. It is used on huge infrastructure projects (Apache Foundation), governments, big tech companies such as amazon, ibm, google, apple for many large scale services. It can do web, ml, GUIs, it's still strong among academics. On top of that it offers a great programming experience with excellent IDE support and it's…

In my opinion, Java as a web language is good when you don't need to really understand what's happening (like in low-traffic situations). If concurrency isn't an issue, then the massive amount of libraries can help you a lot. In high-traffic environments, that ignorance punishes you. I've always felt Java and the JVM are of the mindset that you need a Ph.D. to even understand how it works or how to configure it, and…

There are a lot of points which I simply cannot agree with. 1) concurrency as an issue - you make it sound as if doing concurrent programming in Java is hard. Its not if you read through the documentation. In todays world of spinning up small servers, when done right, it scales to massive levels. 2) Blocking threads, memory contention etc. - i think you may be comparing against the likes of single thread programming models like Vert.x or Node.js etc. The flip side which in my opinion is more severe is that if you get even a small thing wrong on the other side, it blows up even more which is more difficult to isolate and debug. Plus the need to learn a whole new programming paradigm which is not easy to wrap your head around. 3) Lot of tech companies seem to make it work - while I agree that corporates will pretty much make everything seem to work, it requires a few engineers who understand software design principles to create design and abstractions that work well. You imply that only PhDs understand that kind of stuff whereas I am sayin that there are many other who understand and who are genuinely making things work in the Java world. I can tell you, when concurrency done right in Java, it is so performance that many will simply not believe. Just my thoughts and happy to differ.

Re: Java Turns 25 – Whats Next? [pdf]

#148

Post by deepakarora3 »

throwaway189262 wrote: post #114
topspin wrote: post #69

One thing that is hurting Java today is memory usage. Conventional JVMs use a lot of memory relative to essentially everything else and this is drives up cloud bills. There are alternative JVMs and other tools, some of which is embryonic at this point, but what the world wants and what Java really needs to continue thriving is efficient memory use by the bog standard JVMs that work with everything.

That's not always true. Most of the time when Java uses a ton of memory it's because people use the default memory settings. If you tell Java to use up to 90% of system RAM, it will. Garbage collection is expensive so it will delay until memory is depleted. This is a different GC design than V8 and Go, which use older collector designs with high overhead. They need to collect very frequently because their stop the wo…

All OK except when you need the same level of performance for those 0.001% of requests when the GC kicks in and takes the response time outside acceptable limits. Due to this reason alone, my company is planning to move off a popular Java based API gateway and to a C++ envoy side car implemented service mesh. And I am wondering if this is really worth it.

Re: Java Turns 25 – Whats Next? [pdf]

#149

Post by saagarjha »

pjmlp wrote: post #120
cesarb wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't Android mostly based on Java 7 (for instance, the Guava artifact you need for Android is the Java 7 one)? It can't be the reason why Java 8 is popular. I believe that the reason why Java 8 is so popular is because there were a lot of backward compatibility problems with Java 9, compounded by the fact that Java 11 (the next LTS after Java 8; both Java 9 and Java 10 had very a very short life) removed many APIs d…

Nope, Java 8 nowadays. https://developer.android.com/studio/write/java8-support All libraries that matter on the Java eco-system are already on Java 11.

Android's Java is like half of Java 8 :/

Re: Java Turns 25 – Whats Next? [pdf]

#150

Post by saagarjha »

spullara wrote: post #126
cuddlecake wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if being "deployable" is an issue, considering docker exists. So, anything is deployable in the future by default, given a machine running the correct docker image. Or am I misinterpreting the argument?

Java code will run on the new ARM machines Apple will ship. Running your Docker code in the same environment is not going to be pleasant.

Java already runs on the new ARM machines ;) Someone has OpenJDK building for the server variant, and it works quite well already: https://github.com/gonzalolarralde/jdk/tree/gonzalolarralde/.... Apple had the C0 interpreter up on the day of the announcement because they needed it for various Xcode tools.
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