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Java Turns 25 – Whats Next? [pdf]

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Re: Java Turns 25 – Whats Next? [pdf]

#91

Post by FpUser »

ed25519FUUU wrote: post #64
bird_monster wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah it's a losing battle to suggest Java is mostly fine on HN. In this bubble we only use FP and/or Go/Rust and/or C++.

Those are the languages we love at least. I’m willing to bet that most of us are java developers to pay the bills.

This depends. End of 90s beginning of 2000s I did an awful lot of Java as I was doing work for Telcos and they have wanted nothing else. Then I changed type clients and suddenly Java had disappeared from my horizon completely (well I did one more single nice contract somewhere around 2005 I think).

For my own products I've never used anything but native (well except browser programming which was Javascript).

Re: Java Turns 25 – Whats Next? [pdf]

#92

Post by haolez »

yagodragon wrote: post #12

Java might be the most successful programming language. It is a solid choice among many different fields. It is used on huge infrastructure projects (Apache Foundation), governments, big tech companies such as amazon, ibm, google, apple for many large scale services. It can do web, ml, GUIs, it's still strong among academics. On top of that it offers a great programming experience with excellent IDE support and it's…

Java is a language that protects your investment. If you write code for it today, it will probably run and be easily deployable in the future by default.

The same cannot be said for Python and JavaScript, for example. At least not by default.

Re: Java Turns 25 – Whats Next? [pdf]

#93

Post by marvy »

cesarb wrote: post #82
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's the libraries. They're like Barbie - they have everything . You need, say, to store affine transforms in your SQL database? Java can bridge those very different worlds. (It literally has affine transforms in the library.)

> I think it's the libraries. [...] they have everything. On the other hand, they need to have everything. In many other languages, it's common to just use a library written in a different language. For some reason, the foreign function interface of Java seems to have been designed to be hard to use, so instead of using an already existing library, Java developers tend to go through the route of "Rewrite It In Java".

With Project Panama, they are finally trying to make calling non-Java code easy.

Re: Java Turns 25 – Whats Next? [pdf]

#94

Post by bandris »

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #44
mrjoelkemp wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, Java as a web language is good when you don't need to really understand what's happening (like in low-traffic situations). If concurrency isn't an issue, then the massive amount of libraries can help you a lot. In high-traffic environments, that ignorance punishes you. I've always felt Java and the JVM are of the mindset that you need a Ph.D. to even understand how it works or how to configure it, and…

In defence of Java, I read somewhere it's 25 years old ;-) Part of the reason for its success has been its strong commitment to backward compatibility, so it's to be expected that it might accumulate many ways of doing things. Python wisdom tells us this is often a Bad Thing. [0] I imagine Java's approach to concurrency and parallelism might be quite different if it were designed today. [0] https://wiki.python.org/mo…

Actually BEAM and Erlang pre-dates Java. ;-)

As for compatibility: why is Java 8 market share so high in 2020?

Re: Java Turns 25 – Whats Next? [pdf]

#95

Post by conjectures »

kasperni wrote: post #43
coliveira wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main problem with Java is its concurrency model, which gives incentive to the creation of threads that fight for resources and introduce bugs. This seemed a wise choice in the 90s, but as concurrency has increased several-fold in the last 25 years, the model cannot scale to real software needs. It is the Java equivalent to pointers in C.

> the model cannot scale to real software needs. And somehow it is still widely used within Google, Facebook, Amazon, Twitter...

This isn't actually a rebuttal of the point.

Re: Java Turns 25 – Whats Next? [pdf]

#96

Post by WalterBright »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #87
yagodragon wrote: post #12

Java might be the most successful programming language. It is a solid choice among many different fields. It is used on huge infrastructure projects (Apache Foundation), governments, big tech companies such as amazon, ibm, google, apple for many large scale services. It can do web, ml, GUIs, it's still strong among academics. On top of that it offers a great programming experience with excellent IDE support and it's…

Ironically, while Java was the original "write once, run anywhere" language, it never succeeded in that regard (e.g. browser applets were never popular). Ironically, I believe Javascript has. I was pretty much exclusively a Java programmer for the first decade and a half of my career, before moving to Node and TypeScript. I don't think I could ever go back at the point. Most importantly, this is my first time where t…

> Java was the original "write once, run anywhere" language

That crown properly belongs to the UCSD P-System, which was the Java of the 1980's. It was the same idea as Java - compilation to a bytecode which an interpreter ran. It failed because the interpreter performance penalty was too high.

Java also started out as an interpreter, which made it too slow. Steve Russell of Symantec invented a JIT for it, and like the lumbering Allison-engined P-51 getting a supercharged Merlin, it brought Java to life.

Re: Java Turns 25 – Whats Next? [pdf]

#97

Post by fortran77 »

I was at Adobe 25 years ago. And there were people running around saying "We need to re-write everything in Java! This way we can write it once, and it will run on Sun, Mac, Windows, SGI, everwhere!"

Funny how that never worked out. Even the few Java desktop apps that don't look like 30 year old SunOS apps (IntellIJ is probably the best-looking Java app), have to have substantially different versions for each platform.

A few people in the research groups tried re-writing a few apps in Java, like Acrobat Viewer, but nothing ever came of it.

Re: Java Turns 25 – Whats Next? [pdf]

#98

Post by brown9-2 »

kasperni wrote: post #43
coliveira wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main problem with Java is its concurrency model, which gives incentive to the creation of threads that fight for resources and introduce bugs. This seemed a wise choice in the 90s, but as concurrency has increased several-fold in the last 25 years, the model cannot scale to real software needs. It is the Java equivalent to pointers in C.

> the model cannot scale to real software needs. And somehow it is still widely used within Google, Facebook, Amazon, Twitter...

Most of those companies are not writing one-thread-per-request servers, they write non-blocking / async IO Java.

Re: Java Turns 25 – Whats Next? [pdf]

#99

Post by [deleted] »

bandris wrote: post #94
MaxBarraclough wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In defence of Java, I read somewhere it's 25 years old ;-) Part of the reason for its success has been its strong commitment to backward compatibility, so it's to be expected that it might accumulate many ways of doing things. Python wisdom tells us this is often a Bad Thing. [0] I imagine Java's approach to concurrency and parallelism might be quite different if it were designed today. [0] https://wiki.python.org/mo…

Actually BEAM and Erlang pre-dates Java. ;-) As for compatibility: why is Java 8 market share so high in 2020?

[deleted]

Re: Java Turns 25 – Whats Next? [pdf]

#100

Post by coldtea »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #87
yagodragon wrote: post #12

Java might be the most successful programming language. It is a solid choice among many different fields. It is used on huge infrastructure projects (Apache Foundation), governments, big tech companies such as amazon, ibm, google, apple for many large scale services. It can do web, ml, GUIs, it's still strong among academics. On top of that it offers a great programming experience with excellent IDE support and it's…

Ironically, while Java was the original "write once, run anywhere" language, it never succeeded in that regard (e.g. browser applets were never popular). Ironically, I believe Javascript has. I was pretty much exclusively a Java programmer for the first decade and a half of my career, before moving to Node and TypeScript. I don't think I could ever go back at the point. Most importantly, this is my first time where t…

>Ironically, while Java was the original "write once, run anywhere" language, it never succeeded in that regard

That's what people say, but I don't see that.

The same Java code is extremely portable, from Windows, MacOS, Linux, etc, on both the server, cli, and GUI app side.

It's just that its UI libs have historically been over-engineered shit like Swing.

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