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Java Turns 25 – Whats Next? [pdf]

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Re: Java Turns 25 – Whats Next? [pdf]

#61

Post by jacques_chester »

mrjoelkemp wrote: post #32
yagodragon wrote: post #12

Java might be the most successful programming language. It is a solid choice among many different fields. It is used on huge infrastructure projects (Apache Foundation), governments, big tech companies such as amazon, ibm, google, apple for many large scale services. It can do web, ml, GUIs, it's still strong among academics. On top of that it offers a great programming experience with excellent IDE support and it's…

In my opinion, Java as a web language is good when you don't need to really understand what's happening (like in low-traffic situations). If concurrency isn't an issue, then the massive amount of libraries can help you a lot. In high-traffic environments, that ignorance punishes you. I've always felt Java and the JVM are of the mindset that you need a Ph.D. to even understand how it works or how to configure it, and…

> You need to know if you're blocking threads, if there's memory contention, and if libraries you pull in are using the forkjoin common pool (which you're likely using as a default threadpool). And when something blows up, finding the reason (even for any of the above issues) is really tough. You can use flight recorder, heap dumps and gc logs all day, but good luck navigating it all unless you're a genius.

I've seen the same troubles with alternatives, just without the amazing tools, featuresome standard library or widely-accepted conventions.

Erlang is amazing and is places concurrency in a more central position. I'm hopeful Project Loom will greatly diminish the gap while carrying legacy code forward unchanged.

Re: Java Turns 25 – Whats Next? [pdf]

#62

Post by miskin »

mrjoelkemp wrote: post #32
yagodragon wrote: post #12

Java might be the most successful programming language. It is a solid choice among many different fields. It is used on huge infrastructure projects (Apache Foundation), governments, big tech companies such as amazon, ibm, google, apple for many large scale services. It can do web, ml, GUIs, it's still strong among academics. On top of that it offers a great programming experience with excellent IDE support and it's…

In my opinion, Java as a web language is good when you don't need to really understand what's happening (like in low-traffic situations). If concurrency isn't an issue, then the massive amount of libraries can help you a lot. In high-traffic environments, that ignorance punishes you. I've always felt Java and the JVM are of the mindset that you need a Ph.D. to even understand how it works or how to configure it, and…

I believe there are few runtimes out there that have such a good monitoring and profiling tools for free and out of the box as Java. Java Flight Recorder, remote debugging and monitoring can be really useful for rare production performance issues.

Re: Java Turns 25 – Whats Next? [pdf]

#63

Post by tomc1985 »

coliveira wrote: post #46
kasperni wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the model cannot scale to real software needs. And somehow it is still widely used within Google, Facebook, Amazon, Twitter...

C/C++ are also used at Google, FB, Amazon, etc. It doesn't mean that it's not a problem.

I'd bet you're alienating well over half the entire field of software engineering with calling Java, C, and C++ "problems".

Re: Java Turns 25 – Whats Next? [pdf]

#64

Post by ed25519FUUU »

bird_monster wrote: post #31
yagodragon wrote: post #12

Java might be the most successful programming language. It is a solid choice among many different fields. It is used on huge infrastructure projects (Apache Foundation), governments, big tech companies such as amazon, ibm, google, apple for many large scale services. It can do web, ml, GUIs, it's still strong among academics. On top of that it offers a great programming experience with excellent IDE support and it's…

Yeah it's a losing battle to suggest Java is mostly fine on HN. In this bubble we only use FP and/or Go/Rust and/or C++.

Those are the languages we love at least. I’m willing to bet that most of us are java developers to pay the bills.

Re: Java Turns 25 – Whats Next? [pdf]

#65

Post by pron »

gonzo41 wrote: post #9
mxschumacher wrote: post #2

Slightly tangential, but due to a new job I'll have bite the bullet and learn Java. When googling tutorials, I see the same material I found 12 years ago. A lot must have happened since then. What's a good resource to learn Java for somebody who already knows how to program? I'm interested in ecosystem, tooling, best practices, common pitfalls etc.

Everything is OpenJDK now, forget oracle. AWS put out LTS JRE's etc. Try and get your employer to pay for a jetbrains IDE, IntelliJ IDEA. Use Maven for builds. It's simple-ish. Use Spring for frameworks. Everything's been done so you wont be first with any problems here. And all the stuff from 12 years ago is probably what people know and do, so it's still on point. No one does inheritance anymore composition's all t…

> Everything is OpenJDK now, forget oracle.

OpenJDK is the name of Oracle's (one and only) Java implementation project (take a look at the logo at http://openjdk.java.net/). Oracle JDK is the name of the commercially supported product built from OpenJDK, and Oracle also distributes the JDK under a 100% free license (http://jdk.java.net/).

While OpenJDK has been the open-source part of the Sun/Oracle JDK since 2007, Oracle recently completed open sourcing the entire JDK, so that there are no more paid features. The JDK used to be part-free and part commercial, and now it is completely free; you only pay Oracle -- or other companies --- for support if you want it. Other companies contribute to OpenJDK as well, but Oracle still contributes ~90% of the work, and all OpenJDK builds by all vendors are licensed by Oracle. So while you absolutely don't need to pay Oracle (or Sun, as you did before) for using the JDK any more now that it's 100% open, you should at least know that Oracle is the company that (primarily) funds and develops OpenJDK.

(I work on the JDK, i.e. OpenJDK, at Oracle)

Re: Java Turns 25 – Whats Next? [pdf]

#66

Post by scns »

rzwitserloot wrote: post #34
mxschumacher wrote: post #2

Slightly tangential, but due to a new job I'll have bite the bullet and learn Java. When googling tutorials, I see the same material I found 12 years ago. A lot must have happened since then. What's a good resource to learn Java for somebody who already knows how to program? I'm interested in ecosystem, tooling, best practices, common pitfalls etc.

> A lot must have happened since then. Yes. As others have said, 'java is stable' which means the old stuff still works. Which in turn means that a lot of people are still using it and still writing blog posts about it. That still makes these old things often obsolete, or needlessly complex and just 'lesser than'. They don't support certain nice features or support them very badly, or have other significant downsides…

2 of 3 Gson maintaners say: "use Moshi". Source: Jake Wharton (1 of 3 Gson maintainers)

Re: Java Turns 25 – Whats Next? [pdf]

#69

Post by topspin »

One thing that is hurting Java today is memory usage. Conventional JVMs use a lot of memory relative to essentially everything else and this is drives up cloud bills. There are alternative JVMs and other tools, some of which is embryonic at this point, but what the world wants and what Java really needs to continue thriving is efficient memory use by the bog standard JVMs that work with everything.

Re: Java Turns 25 – Whats Next? [pdf]

#70

Post by apta »

mrjoelkemp wrote: post #32
yagodragon wrote: post #12

Java might be the most successful programming language. It is a solid choice among many different fields. It is used on huge infrastructure projects (Apache Foundation), governments, big tech companies such as amazon, ibm, google, apple for many large scale services. It can do web, ml, GUIs, it's still strong among academics. On top of that it offers a great programming experience with excellent IDE support and it's…

In my opinion, Java as a web language is good when you don't need to really understand what's happening (like in low-traffic situations). If concurrency isn't an issue, then the massive amount of libraries can help you a lot. In high-traffic environments, that ignorance punishes you. I've always felt Java and the JVM are of the mindset that you need a Ph.D. to even understand how it works or how to configure it, and…

> If concurrency isn't an issue, then the massive amount of libraries can help you a lot.

Can you point to another language that has anything remotely comparable to `java.util.concurrent`? Also, Java is getting green threads by means of Project Loom.

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