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Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

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Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's more accurate to say the US had a temporary (1 decade) diversion from the norm of "Benign Neglect"[1] which pissed off Americans to the point they sought explicit Independence. China has a much longer cultural history of being "self contained" (and suspicious of outsiders) which was deeply reinforced in the 19th century Opium Wars, etc. 1 - http://community.weber.edu/weberreads/salutary_or_benign_neg...

The American colonies were subject to mercantilism for 170 years before the American Revolution started. To suggest that the American colonies weren't subject to foreign gunships forcing trade policies upon them is simply a ridiculous statement. The American colonies were prevented, by force, from trading with the French, Spanish and Dutch. The British Empire captured New Amsterdam in 1664 in the Second Anglo-Dutch W…

While there was always some fear of foreign war, it never rose to the level of century-long occupation or and domination that China experienced. The American colonies were just too unimportant until the French and Indian War compared to the Sugar colonies.

Even taking New York was kind of a side effect of New England being nearby and English gradually settling down from Connecticut, rather than part of some grand strategy.

Mercantilism was the law, but by defacto neglect Americans were trading with everyone with very few consequences until after the French and Indian war. It simply was too expensive for the British to enforce.

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#122
post #97
post #26

By far the most egregious overreach of Federal authority in recent memory. Noting about this is reasonable. Its 100% the act of a desperate and weak minded despot who knows nothing about technology but acts out of ignorance and pettiness. A truly illegal and Anti-American act.

Treating foreign businesses on equal footing to domestic ones is a recent phenomena. Historically the US has leveraged trade policy to block foreign enterprise through the use of tariffs during periods of instability ( reconstruction ) and to protect early industries ( Pennsylvania steel industry in the mid-1800s ). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff_in_United_States_histor... In the event that a country lacks a co…

> It will be interesting if the EU seeks a similar strategy to grow its tech sector.

The EU is indeed slowly taking that direction: https://www.ft.com/content/7738fdd8-e0c3-4090-8cc9-7d4b53ff3...

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#123
Honest question for Chinese users of WeChat: have you ever thought twice about WeChat posts and communications, whether they'll be deemed "acceptable" to censors? Everyone I know self-censors nearly constantly, if unconsciously.

A good example: in a discussion of this case I was reading today in Chinese the author ironically noted that he couldn't summarize the US government's position because in a large WeChat group the content would be "deemed as against the rules" (视为违规)

Such is the state of WeChat discourse in 2020.

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is a strong case to be made that WeChat is, as a practical matter, a public minister as defined in Article 2. Therefore, the executive has the right to refuse their presence in the US. All Chinese companies operate under the direction and control of the CCP; we can arrive at the conclusion that a company is a public minister if companies are people, and they act at the behest of their home government. h…

To clarify the CCP control of companies: 1) The CCP has to have a representative on the board. The ccp say it's like a union rep(!) since they are communists. But they don't have a veto, just a vote like other board members. 2) This condition is only for companies over a certain size. 3) This also applies to large foreign companies not just domestic.

[deleted]

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#125
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But in this case, the executive has the authority to ban things based on national security. And if that power isn't properly applied, the courts will intervene. What "autocracy" are you referring to?

An executive in conflict with the courts is an unstable government and an autocratic tending executive.

What? No. That's the point of the system. It's the checks and balances part.

Or are you arguing Obama was an autocrat because his decisions were struck down by the Supreme Court?

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/06/the-sup...

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#126
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what context does those articles add, other than what's already presented?

China fought a land war against a coalition of invaders who attempted to subvert its economic, political and religious sovereignty. China lost, was forced to cede Hong Kong to the British for 99 years, and paid 668,661,220 taels of silver from 1901 to 1939, equivalent in 2010 to $US 61 billion on a purchasing power parity basis. A large portion of the reparations paid to the United States was diverted to pay for the…

Fascinating but doesn't seem relevant to the topic at hand.

The China of that history has been displaced by an undemocratic revolutionary regime that conquered the Chinese people.

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#127
post #10

I have been studying Chinese for 7 years. Many of my Chinese friends live in Los Angeles and WeChat is central in their life... Getting a job, taking orders, doing all kinds of business, paying for things. They don't know the phone numbers of their friends. Many don't speak English or their English is not very good. If it is completely cut off they will still find ways to communicate but arguably it will be more like…

They can do what all expats in China already need to do to access facebook, google, gmail, instagram, twitter, whatsapp, etc: use a vpn.

Just to be clear, the USA doesn’t have the infrastructure or legal framework in place to actually block internet traffic. The best they can do is remove DNS entries.

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think the CCP is as concerned with chinese citizens knowing what they are doing If you ask a random Chinese citizen "are you okay with the government listening in to your phone calls?", most people would say Yes. Having the government listen in and having government presence on the streets makes us feel safe, because most of us trust our government. Sure, it has it's issues, but in general, the government a…

That random Chinese citizen is afraid to say no, and assuming you will report them.

How many Chinese have you had intimate conversations with about this?

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#129

I think it's easy to say the ban doesn't make sense when it is perhaps a preventative measure. We have seen social networks take over others many times in terms of popularity. If TikTok and WeChat's usage becomes more widespread in the voting population of the US, they would have a lot of influence by controlling what kind of content its users sees; e.g., FB has been criticized many times for this, namely performing…

>The difference between TikTok and WeChat and FB/Google/Twitter is obvious: the former are to some degree controlled by China and the latter are private entities.

How is for example Facebook better because it isn't somehow tied in to the US government? On the one hand the state still have access to all the data from Facebook it wants (NSA, warrants) but on the other they have a hard time protecting its users privacy rights. I'm not convinced private entities are any better. For a US citizen maybe Facebook is better as a private entity but for everyone else outside the US?

Personally I would rather put my data in a Chinese-owned Tiktok than an American one because of the extreme amount of data already flowing into US services. Even if Tiktok is used to spy on me I can't see how it would be any worse for an European than putting more data into US services.

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is a strong case to be made that WeChat is, as a practical matter, a public minister as defined in Article 2. Therefore, the executive has the right to refuse their presence in the US. All Chinese companies operate under the direction and control of the CCP; we can arrive at the conclusion that a company is a public minister if companies are people, and they act at the behest of their home government. h…

There absolutely is a case. I was not meaning to imply that there wasn't. I was meaning specifically to address the idea that the rights of a sovereign nation can be invoked to decide whether any particular action legal under the laws of the United States. As long as the USA remains a country that is bound by rule of law rather than rule of dictate, one can't reasonably argue with due process simply by invoking the f…

Agreed completely, so I don’t think the judicial review here is unnecessary or unwarranted.
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