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Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

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Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#201

Post by suifbwish »

sandworm101 wrote: post #75
yodsanklai wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree. First, many Americans don't support these acts, it's just beyond their control. And others do support them but either minimize them or believe they are justified for a greater good. And a lot are totally clueless and just have no idea of what's going on. There's a lot of propaganda, poor education and lack of information in the US. Just watch a presidential debate, it's a joke.

Thats the problem with democracy: the people own the mistakes of those they elect. Dont like what they do? Vote them out of office. Arrest them. Jail them. If the system fails, fix the system.

No the problem with democracy, we’ll the USAs in particular is there exists no department or task force whose sole duty is to enforce the constitution at every level and to imprison those in government positions who abuse their powers for personal gain or immoral purposes.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#202

Post by iso947 »

leetcrew wrote: post #131
arcticbull wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a really hard time with that answer. In a democracy each individual is directly and personally responsible for their government. That's the power and the responsibility associated with picking your leadership. You get credit for the good and the blame for the bad. In an autocracy, it's murkier.

the gerrymandering is a really important issue. my city is split into n districts (where 10 I'm not arguing the city would be better off with more republicans in office, but it's a good example to show how even affluent people can be totally disenfranchised in a political system. no matter how effectively these people mobilize, they will never win an election, even at the most local level, in the foreseeable future.

A single district electing say 20 people via a single transferable vote would be far more representive. The problem isn’t district boundaries, it’s first past the post.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#203

Post by thechao »

leetcrew wrote: post #131
arcticbull wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a really hard time with that answer. In a democracy each individual is directly and personally responsible for their government. That's the power and the responsibility associated with picking your leadership. You get credit for the good and the blame for the bad. In an autocracy, it's murkier.

the gerrymandering is a really important issue. my city is split into n districts (where 10 I'm not arguing the city would be better off with more republicans in office, but it's a good example to show how even affluent people can be totally disenfranchised in a political system. no matter how effectively these people mobilize, they will never win an election, even at the most local level, in the foreseeable future.

Sortition with incumbency: if an incumbent wants to “run” again, flip a coin. All empty seats are filled by randomly choosing from a pool of volunteers.

Has the nice property of being well-nigh incorruptible, cheap to implement, and perfectly representative of the population interested in serving.

I also like the fact that it provides direct agency as a “voter” (volunteer to serve), rather than indirect agency (vote for a volunteer).

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#204

Post by arcticbull »

stjohnswarts wrote: post #182
arcticbull wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, the two major parties are "center-right" and "far-right" politically. There are some leftists but they aren't represented, and because of the two-party system they won't be. Two parties ~= one party.

AOC and her squad are very far left and they're mainstream.

AOC is centre left, somewhere between Canada’s ruling Liberal party and the NDP currently endorsing them (its a minority government this time). NDP is a little further left IMO but not far off.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#205

Post by arcticbull »

0xy wrote: post #197
arcticbull wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. More than in some places to be sure. 1. Until June 16, 2020, that you could be fired for being gay or transgender. And that's not even a blanket ruling, as religious institutions in the US are basically exempt from the Civil Rights Act protections. 2. It's still illegal to use one bathroom or another as a transgender person depending on which state you're in. 3. Transgender people are not allowed in the U…

Do you think it's beneficial for the US military to accept transgender people who, according to dozens of studies, have substantially higher rates of anxiety, depression, suicidal ideation and other negative side effects? Additionally, some of the hormone blocking drugs can cause bone loss (presenting a real physical risk). Obviously, this has innumerable risks in a military environment from an objective standpoint.…

This comment won’t look good on you in a few years, I’m sure, and it reminds me of the kind of things people used to say about accepting women into the armed forces.

You pass basic training just the same so half your arguments are null right there. If you can’t pass basic training they don’t care what’s between your legs, you’re going home.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#206

Post by DanBC »

0xy wrote: post #197
arcticbull wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. More than in some places to be sure. 1. Until June 16, 2020, that you could be fired for being gay or transgender. And that's not even a blanket ruling, as religious institutions in the US are basically exempt from the Civil Rights Act protections. 2. It's still illegal to use one bathroom or another as a transgender person depending on which state you're in. 3. Transgender people are not allowed in the U…

Do you think it's beneficial for the US military to accept transgender people who, according to dozens of studies, have substantially higher rates of anxiety, depression, suicidal ideation and other negative side effects? Additionally, some of the hormone blocking drugs can cause bone loss (presenting a real physical risk). Obviously, this has innumerable risks in a military environment from an objective standpoint.…

> In fact, even post-transition, suicidal ideation is still orders of magnitude higher than average.

All the research we have on this says it's caused by the presence of transphobia, and isn't intrinsic to being trans.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#207

Post by arcticbull »

nwienert wrote: post #174
arcticbull wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even healthcare, though, what's the Biden playbook on healthcare? "Instead of starting from scratch and getting rid of private insurance, he has a plan to build on the Affordable Care Act by giving Americans more choice, reducing health care costs, and making our health care system less complex to navigate." This is a quote from the Biden campaign site. As though letting anyone enroll in Medicare is "starting from sc…

You’re arguing because modern Left positions haven’t successfully passed into law, that the parties are fundamentally the same? A good half the county would strongly disagree with what you feel - and that they’ve blocked those from passing isn’t proof that the system is failing, it’s proof it’s working. Obama got his healthcare plan. Every president usually gets maybe one or two bigger things they want, not all. It’s…

I’m arguing if you set the rhetoric aside the party platforms are largely the same. The Overton window is shifted so far to the right in the US the two parties are basically “right or center-right,” and “far right.” There is no left. From a purely policy perspective they’re very similar.

There are clear and obvious differences in how the party operates and which side is on team Science for instance, but the core policy issues just aren’t all that different.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#208

Post by nwienert »

arcticbull wrote: post #207
nwienert wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re arguing because modern Left positions haven’t successfully passed into law, that the parties are fundamentally the same? A good half the county would strongly disagree with what you feel - and that they’ve blocked those from passing isn’t proof that the system is failing, it’s proof it’s working. Obama got his healthcare plan. Every president usually gets maybe one or two bigger things they want, not all. It’s…

I’m arguing if you set the rhetoric aside the party platforms are largely the same. The Overton window is shifted so far to the right in the US the two parties are basically “right or center-right,” and “far right.” There is no left. From a purely policy perspective they’re very similar. There are clear and obvious differences in how the party operates and which side is on team Science for instance, but the core poli…

Strong disagree. I don’t get this line of reasoning at all. First of all you have multiple factions within each party that strongly disagree - on the left it ranges from extreme socialists to populist liberals (in decline) to neolibs and hawks. You had Bernie almost winning the primaries this year. On the right you have tea party libertarians, you have evangelicals, you have national populists now, and you have your neocons.

Now you could say neocons and neolibs did dominate for a while, and yea that has some truth. But it’s not so true today.

The two party system is really interesting because within each party you really do have diversity, and then they all compromise with each other. The dems are doing that this year. They have to do that, or else they lose their electorate. The parties move around constantly. Ron Paul moved the needle. Al Gore brought forward environmentalism. The Liberals have changed wildly over the last 30 years from being more middle/low class focused to being the party of the rich, of tech, and shifting towards focusing on minorities. That they were more aligned for a bit doesn’t prove anything.

Look at how Trump is remaking the right. It’s been fascinating and he’s done a sort of garbage cleaning on their platform.

Look at how Bernie’s success has radically pushed the left.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#209

Post by cmurf »

arcticbull wrote: post #207
nwienert wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re arguing because modern Left positions haven’t successfully passed into law, that the parties are fundamentally the same? A good half the county would strongly disagree with what you feel - and that they’ve blocked those from passing isn’t proof that the system is failing, it’s proof it’s working. Obama got his healthcare plan. Every president usually gets maybe one or two bigger things they want, not all. It’s…

I’m arguing if you set the rhetoric aside the party platforms are largely the same. The Overton window is shifted so far to the right in the US the two parties are basically “right or center-right,” and “far right.” There is no left. From a purely policy perspective they’re very similar. There are clear and obvious differences in how the party operates and which side is on team Science for instance, but the core poli…

They are largely the same because the alternatives fail in various ways: they fail to finance their campaigns, i.e. they fail to get aristocratic backing, and/or they fail to appeal to the tiny minority of most motivated participants, i.e. primary voters.

Also, the two parties have conspired to put in all kinds of barriers, at the state and local level, to make it difficult to unseat their primacy.

But to say they just aren't all that different, ignoring the effect of consistency over time, is like suggesting the pressure differential above and below an airfoil isn't that different. It is true, but it's not a complete answer either.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#210

Post by sudosysgen »

jariel wrote: post #192
sudosysgen wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean, like the mass murder of millions of innocents the US has perpetrated abroad? If you believe in proportionality and not utilitarianism, I shudder to think what you find commensurate. Certainly much more than I would. How many people did Vietnam murder since the end of the war? How many did Laos?

[flagged]

>Fighting opponents in war, is not 'murder'.

Fighting oponents in an offensive war is 100%, no question, muder.

Equivocating people that died in one of the poorest countries in the world after a war where more explosives were dropped than during WW2 is ridiculous.

Finally, 2/3 of your sources literally come from a party in the war and are thus completely unreliable. Find a source that is not aligned with and does not receive money from either Vietnam or the US. If you can't, then the conclusions drawn from that have to written off.

Finally, if you are going to be using biased sources and equivocating definitions so that you can have a shadow of an argument based on misguided semantics, please refrain from insulting your interlocutor.

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