Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial • Hacker News Board

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#111

Post by pwdisswordfish0 » Sat, Sep 19, 2020, 5:29 PM UTC

lionkor wrote: post #68

tda wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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German here - I absolutely agree. I think the way Hitler rose to power is such an important piece of history. Nazi germany wasnt the first country to act like that. They didnt invent torture or mass killings, genocide, etc. It had happened before, everyone knew it, everyone knew that it can happen. And yet they voted blindly and thought "ah, well, it wont happen here". And low and behold, a few years later it does. I…

Another German here. I also agree. However, it’s “lo and behold”. It’s basically a contraction of “look”.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#112

Post by lawnchair_larry » Sat, Sep 19, 2020, 5:29 PM UTC

fit2rule wrote: post #88

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was explaining the issue to the commenter, since they seemed to be expressing honest confusion about why their comment comes across as incendiary. I certainly agree it's better to avoid engaging with inflammatory rhetoric, but we shouldn't let that become a refusal to help people moderate their tone when they don't mean to give offense.

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Genocide is not happening. You won’t be taken seriously if you make such claims.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#113

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Sep 19, 2020, 5:30 PM UTC

arcticbull wrote: post #86

Sargos wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until our governmental system is overhauled to allow for more democracy and less powerful individuals then the citizens really don't bare much responsibility for the actions of our masters. I live in a gerrymandered district with no real way to vote for my preferences and it doesn't look like it will get better anytime soon.

I have a really hard time with that answer. In a democracy each individual is directly and personally responsible for their government. That's the power and the responsibility associated with picking your leadership. You get credit for the good and the blame for the bad. In an autocracy, it's murkier.

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Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#114

Post by jariel » Sat, Sep 19, 2020, 5:32 PM UTC

pftf wrote: post #80

sandworm101 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats the problem with democracy: the people own the mistakes of those they elect. Dont like what they do? Vote them out of office. Arrest them. Jail them. If the system fails, fix the system.

Voting doesn't work for the most important issues, where human rights are being severely violated. It took a civil war for the end of slavery to begin in the US. It took decades of terrorism for the Irish to stop being as subjugated by the British in Northern Ireland. And so on. History indicates that what you really need in the US right now is some violent, direct action against those committing human rights atrocit…

Talking about someone having 'been beaten' by US while China literally puts 100's of thousands in concentration camps merely for being of a specific ethnicity ... as their organs are nabbed by the elite via 'body part' black markets.

All these issues have to be put in context: the scale, the type of abuses, the proportionality, the context, the risk etc..

9/11 was a 'very scary' moment in history, the likelihood that others were planning to do the same was very high, and legit terrorist organizations were operating around the world.

The response to 'non-uniformed irregular attack' was necessarily going to have to be equally as asymmetric, i.e. getting at bad people in the locations they were working form, as opposed to a battle field.

It gets a little bit pedantic to discuss 'human rights' when in conflict, people are exterminated 'in accordance with all UN/International laws and rules' sometimes pretty arbitrarily. For example, the teenager Omar Khadr who killed a US Medic on the battlefield was injured, and about to die. It was US special forces who them saved him, ironically so he could spend a long time in Guantanamo.

The paradox of the fact that were he not of 'special interest' - he would be 100% dead, and nobody, not 'Amnesty International' or the UN would put up a fuss, as he was shot lobbing grenades at medics.

US and EU laws are not designed for acute, wartime scenarios, the only real question is how rational and reasonable the management of force can be applied without breaking too many humane boundaries, and, how many 'mistakes' we are willing to make.

The CIA black cells are definitely a stain, but in the grand scheme of history, it's nothing. Civil, lawful and humane order was otherwise broadly maintained.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#115

Post by arcticbull » Sat, Sep 19, 2020, 5:33 PM UTC

jhpriestley wrote: post #107

arcticbull wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 2009, 2010 and 2011, Obama was President and the House and Senate were both Democratic. Who was stopping Obama from closing GITMO during those three years? This was a campaign promise after all. Did DREAM'ers not exist at this time? GITMO never closed because the US didn't find countries super willing to take in the detainees, and felt it would be "too distasteful" to let them stay in the US proper. Not a good cas…

Clinton was in fact a centrist "third-way" democrat who often compromised or coopted Republican issues, e.g. welfare reform. Obama was not as much of a centrist but he was obstructed heavily by the opposition. I'll continue to blame the people who vote 90% in one direction over the ones who vote 90% the other lol. Edit: you added some specific comments about immigration. This is correct, Democrats are not very pro-im…

Even healthcare, though, what's the Biden playbook on healthcare?

"Instead of starting from scratch and getting rid of private insurance, he has a plan to build on the Affordable Care Act by giving Americans more choice, reducing health care costs, and making our health care system less complex to navigate." This is a quote from the Biden campaign site.

As though letting anyone enroll in Medicare is "starting from scratch."

Compared to the Trump plan on healthcare which roughly amounts to: "Leave the Affordable Care Act in place because there really is no other option that anyone can come up with."

So, the Democratic plan is to leave private insurers be, so long as they cover pre-existing conditions. Which is the Republican plan. The difference is one is framed positively and the other negatively? Bumping up vs ignoring Medicare and Medicaid financing? Maybe? Even that's not clear from the Biden site.

The issue is the system is broken entirely, and both sides plan to move the deck chairs around -- one six inches to the left, and one six inches to the right. This was equally true of DACA. Leaving people in a perpetual state of deferred action parole via executive order is not a solution to anything.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#116

Post by sudosysgen » Sat, Sep 19, 2020, 5:34 PM UTC

pftf wrote: post #80

sandworm101 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats the problem with democracy: the people own the mistakes of those they elect. Dont like what they do? Vote them out of office. Arrest them. Jail them. If the system fails, fix the system.

Voting doesn't work for the most important issues, where human rights are being severely violated. It took a civil war for the end of slavery to begin in the US. It took decades of terrorism for the Irish to stop being as subjugated by the British in Northern Ireland. And so on. History indicates that what you really need in the US right now is some violent, direct action against those committing human rights atrocit…

While you're correct that historically, violence is very often required to redress these atrocities, and you're very correct that this is an uncomfortable fact that we like to ignore, the time for violence is when there is absolutely, positively, no other option. And we're not there yet. Very far from it, and there is still hope that it won't be needed.

When a hundred million people will be on the street, and fire is opened on protesters, then is the time. Starting violence as a popular movement for human rights is not a good option.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#117

Post by jariel » Sat, Sep 19, 2020, 5:36 PM UTC

elmo2you wrote: post #16

> .. in the United States, it will likely be excluded as irrelevant because the Espionage Act does not allow a public interest defense. Remind me again, what made the USA any better than North Korea or any other off-the-rails criminal regime? If this statement about the Espionage Act is correct, then why is there even a discussion whether Assange will get a fair trial in the USA? It's plain as daylight that he never…

"Remind me again, what made the USA any better than North Korea or any other off-the-rails criminal regime?"

... is an intellectually offensive question.

Posed in the open, by someone on an 'American' blog, in perfect safety knowing there would not remotely ever be any repercussions for posing the question.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#118

Post by sudosysgen » Sat, Sep 19, 2020, 5:36 PM UTC

jariel wrote: post #114

pftf wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voting doesn't work for the most important issues, where human rights are being severely violated. It took a civil war for the end of slavery to begin in the US. It took decades of terrorism for the Irish to stop being as subjugated by the British in Northern Ireland. And so on. History indicates that what you really need in the US right now is some violent, direct action against those committing human rights atrocit…

Talking about someone having 'been beaten' by US while China literally puts 100's of thousands in concentration camps merely for being of a specific ethnicity ... as their organs are nabbed by the elite via 'body part' black markets. All these issues have to be put in context: the scale, the type of abuses, the proportionality, the context, the risk etc.. 9/11 was a 'very scary' moment in history, the likelihood that…

[flagged]

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#119

Post by lawnchair_larry » Sat, Sep 19, 2020, 5:37 PM UTC

Fnoord wrote: post #66

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #40

A lot of comments are (rightfully) condemning American atrocity, but let’s not lose sight that it is defense for Assange as well. His actions clearly came with the moral imperative of whistleblowing - even just this one example shows the humanitarian crimes that would go unrevealed if the leaked documents weren’t published. There’s just no way to pretend like Assange caused harm or violated law - whistleblowing is no…

The problem I have with him is that his massive leaks were politically motivated. The helicopter who shot journalists, that movie was genuine, and a proper leak. All the diplomatic cables being leaked? Clinton's e-mails? I don't believe all of that was in the public interest. He fell in the trap of making it political, us vs them (why he went in bed with the Russians), and disregarding operational safety.

Motivation is not relevant, results are.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#120

Post by luckylion » Sat, Sep 19, 2020, 5:39 PM UTC

blackbrokkoli wrote: post #87

pvaldes wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s totally absurd that US can kidnap random people outside their country. kidnap... and assassinate. Is not the US people in any case, is their government. And some of those people seem to have severe and worrying sadistic undercurrents in their personality. As human beings, torturers are a real failure.

That seems like the cheap way out. The real shocker here is not that people do cruel things. Murderers carrying out abhorrent fantasies exist and existed everywhere, anytime. Suppose I have such a personality, and that becomes known, my government then should do the appropriate medical and judical procedures. When the government then goes "oh, here is 10k/month and a ticket to Macedonia and go live your dream", there…

> And that grievance is a systemic one and therefor a responsibilty of the people should they have the intention to declare themselves as a democracy...

I believe the major issue that everyone affected likes to avoid is their profit of that behavior. Not necessarily torture itself, I don't think it helps for interrogations but may serve as a deterrent, but global power and regular war and demonstrations of strength. That gets you a lot of favorable trade deals, you get to be the world's reserve currency, and you can borrow without any limits. That's pretty good, and probably more than makes up for the insane military spending - and citizens profit from that as well.

I don't think there's a lot of motivation to be overly critical in that regard, much like most people won't be too critical of their company when they get half a million in total compensation.