A psychoanalytic reading of social media and the death drive • Hacker News Board

Re: A psychoanalytic reading of social media and the death drive

#11

Post by coldtea » Sat, Sep 19, 2020, 10:37 AM UTC

Ygg2 wrote: post #8

Psychoanalytic is as discredited as theory can get. It might as well as deriving particle theory from of Aristotle four base elements. Plus the article is riddled with sentences like "telos of the clickbait economy is fascist kitsch." It's just empty claptrap, that could have been written in half as many words, if the writer wasn't trying to be as pretentious.

"Psychoanalytic is as discredited as theory can get" - you'd be surprised. People saying such have in mind some caricature of 19th century Freudian analysis.

>Plus the article is riddled with sentences like "telos of the clickbait economy is fascist kitsch."

Which basically means "the final state the clickbait economy moves forward as its inherent tendency is fascist kitsch".

>It's just empty claptrap, that could have been written in half as many words, if the writer wasn't trying to be as pretentious.

In other words, if we talked down to his audience, assuming them to being half-illiterate Joe Sixpacks.

Re: A psychoanalytic reading of social media and the death drive

#12

Post by coldtea » Sat, Sep 19, 2020, 10:40 AM UTC

Pirgo wrote: post #10

coldtea wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But in the past we had plenty of crises and yet we used to spend our downtime shooting the shit, going around in circles, with stupid and bland people just like ourselve Past people were much more involved in societal change and day to day history than we are.

Kids these days!

Yeah, I don't believe (or see historical proof) for eternal stasis, so I don't find the argument "haha, he complants about kids these days, like tons of people did on their day, so it must have been always wrong to complaint about that" convincing.

There was a Rome, and then a fall of Rome and the dark ages. And the same for tons of institutions, states, cultures, etc.

Heck, there was the pre-war Germany and then there was the Nazi germany.

"Kids these days" is often very true compared to what preceeding generations did at various times.

Re: A psychoanalytic reading of social media and the death drive

#13

Post by Pirgo » Sat, Sep 19, 2020, 10:54 AM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #12

Pirgo wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kids these days!

Yeah, I don't believe (or see historical proof) for eternal stasis, so I don't find the argument "haha, he complants about kids these days, like tons of people did on their day, so it must have been always wrong to complaint about that" convincing. There was a Rome, and then a fall of Rome and the dark ages. And the same for tons of institutions, states, cultures, etc. Heck, there was the pre-war Germany and then the…

There were many "past people" who did absolutely nothing when faced with atrocities brought upon Jews in Nazi Germany, just as there are "now people" who risk their very lives by engaing in various forms of activism regarding societal change. Making broad statements about level of engagement of "past people" is akin to statements like "in our time music used to be much better!".

Re: A psychoanalytic reading of social media and the death drive

#14

Post by enkid » Sat, Sep 19, 2020, 10:59 AM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #9

discreteevent wrote: post #7

"That we want to waste our time. That, however much we might complain, we find satisfaction in endless, circular argument." "But political and economic and immunological crises pile on one another in succession, over the background roar of ecological collapse. Time is not infinite. None of us can afford to spend what is left of it dallying with the stupid and bland." But in the past we had plenty of crises and yet we…

> But in the past we had plenty of crises and yet we used to spend our downtime shooting the shit, going around in circles, with stupid and bland people just like ourselve Past people were much more involved in societal change and day to day history than we are.

You can't make a broad statement like that. In most places, for most times, people have been pretty passive. The mass of people being involved is the exception, not the rule, and even then, it normally was not a majority, but a local minority that acted at the right time that changed things.

Re: A psychoanalytic reading of social media and the death drive

#15

Post by unishark » Sat, Sep 19, 2020, 11:23 AM UTC

Ygg2 wrote: post #8

Psychoanalytic is as discredited as theory can get. It might as well as deriving particle theory from of Aristotle four base elements. Plus the article is riddled with sentences like "telos of the clickbait economy is fascist kitsch." It's just empty claptrap, that could have been written in half as many words, if the writer wasn't trying to be as pretentious.

> Plus the article is riddled with sentences like "telos of the clickbait economy is fascist kitsch."

That's a quote from the book, which the reviewer does say "...some will find unbearably pretentious"

Re: A psychoanalytic reading of social media and the death drive

#16

Post by Ygg2 » Sat, Sep 19, 2020, 11:25 AM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #11

Ygg2 wrote: post #8

Psychoanalytic is as discredited as theory can get. It might as well as deriving particle theory from of Aristotle four base elements. Plus the article is riddled with sentences like "telos of the clickbait economy is fascist kitsch." It's just empty claptrap, that could have been written in half as many words, if the writer wasn't trying to be as pretentious.

"Psychoanalytic is as discredited as theory can get" - you'd be surprised. People saying such have in mind some caricature of 19th century Freudian analysis. > Plus the article is riddled with sentences like "telos of the clickbait economy is fascist kitsch." Which basically means "the final state the clickbait economy moves forward as its inherent tendency is fascist kitsch". > It's just empty claptrap, that could h…

> People saying such have in mind some caricature of 19th century Freudian analysis

Article mentions Freud's desire for death.

Freud theory is bunk. It's unprovable, can't be verified, useless and outdated model. If psychology as a whole has a replication issue. Freud psychoanalytics has a deeply existential issue.

> Which basically means "the final state the clickbait economy moves forward as its inherent tendency is fascist kitsch".

I know what it means. In the end you didn't explain much, just explained what telos is.

Let me help - Clickbait economy is a rage generator.

> other words, if we talked down to his audience, assuming them to being half-illiterate Joe Sixpacks.

I read my fair share of philosophers, I understand what he's trying to say. However it's all been said better and more eloquently by CCP Grey in his video on memes.

https://youtu.be/rE3j_RHkqJc

Any halfwit, pompous, rudderless, telos lacking humanities reject could have written, a long, detalied, baroque word salad if the whippersnapper in question was so inclined - much like this sentence.

Real artistry isn't saying as much as you can, but saying as much as you can in as few and understandable words.

To quote a poet "Brevity is the soul of wit".

Re: A psychoanalytic reading of social media and the death drive

#17

Post by Ygg2 » Sat, Sep 19, 2020, 11:38 AM UTC

unishark wrote: post #15

Ygg2 wrote: post #8

Psychoanalytic is as discredited as theory can get. It might as well as deriving particle theory from of Aristotle four base elements. Plus the article is riddled with sentences like "telos of the clickbait economy is fascist kitsch." It's just empty claptrap, that could have been written in half as many words, if the writer wasn't trying to be as pretentious.

> Plus the article is riddled with sentences like "telos of the clickbait economy is fascist kitsch." That's a quote from the book, which the reviewer does say "...some will find unbearably pretentious"

Indeed, Correct.

However, still doesn't address my issue. It's talking circles and full of fun word phrases like "chronophage", "pettifogger".

> That's a quote from the book, which the reviewer does say "...some will find unbearably pretentious"

Sure. He found it charming. No wonder why.

Re: A psychoanalytic reading of social media and the death drive

#18

Post by tremon » Sat, Sep 19, 2020, 11:50 AM UTC

And correct: the telos of the clickbait economy is fascist kitsch

I'm not sure how to parse this. What does it mean for something to have kitsch as its ultimate aim, or for an economy to have an aim?

I think I understand what the author is getting at, which is that exciting the lizard brain in humans is easy to do by creating artificial fears and enemies, and that it takes very little effort to construct this "art". But "telos" specifically doesn't mean "a means", it means "purposeful aim". And I don't think kitsch is the aim. If anything, the aim of the clickbait economy seems to simply be to displace all other economies, which is a rather trite statement in itself.

On the other hand, maybe the author was simply looking for a high-brow synonym for "product" and missed the mark? It's like saying "the telos of the pottery industry is kitchenware". No it isn't: the telos of the industry is to safely store long-term goods.

Re: A psychoanalytic reading of social media and the death drive

#19

Post by 411111111111111 » Sat, Sep 19, 2020, 11:53 AM UTC

enkid wrote: post #14

coldtea wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But in the past we had plenty of crises and yet we used to spend our downtime shooting the shit, going around in circles, with stupid and bland people just like ourselve Past people were much more involved in societal change and day to day history than we are.

You can't make a broad statement like that. In most places, for most times, people have been pretty passive. The mass of people being involved is the exception, not the rule, and even then, it normally was not a majority, but a local minority that acted at the right time that changed things.

I think both statements can be true. It's just when there are only two hundred people around, each voice has more influence then even an enthusiastic politician nowadays.

So just by living like we do today with having opinions and voicing them you've already influenced your society back then. If you do the same today, nothing would've changed.

Re: A psychoanalytic reading of social media and the death drive

#20

Post by unishark » Sat, Sep 19, 2020, 11:57 AM UTC

Ygg2 wrote: post #17

unishark wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Plus the article is riddled with sentences like "telos of the clickbait economy is fascist kitsch." That's a quote from the book, which the reviewer does say "...some will find unbearably pretentious"

Indeed, Correct. However, still doesn't address my issue. It's talking circles and full of fun word phrases like "chronophage", "pettifogger". > That's a quote from the book, which the reviewer does say "...some will find unbearably pretentious" Sure. He found it charming. No wonder why.

Well presumably he read it because he wanted to. I wouldn't have survived such language myself either, luckily "Max" was there to boil it down for you and I.

And I found the review fairly amusing for a while. It cited some competing theories, including the book's theory which, despite psychoanalysis equating to people pulling complex theories out of their favorite orifice, was still a rather interesting theory worth thinking about.

Certainly it beat a lot of articles about "fixing" social media which often seem to be little more than attempts at maximizing ad revenue by packing in lots of references to famous recent outrages and/or Trump (who barely got a mention here).