FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names • Hacker News Board

Re: FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

#221

Post by mycroftiv » Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 9:02 PM UTC

fuzzmeister wrote: post #201

mycroftiv wrote: post #12

This is a disaster. A very sad day for the internet. We are entering into pastor Niemoller territory here: first they came for the file-sharing websites, next they came for the online gambling websites, and I would guess that Bitcoin is probably next in line, and following that, Magic: the Gathering online and the MMORPGs.

Are you intentionally hyperbolizing, or do you honestly believe that the government will shut down MMORPGs? Further, I'd like to see some arguments to back up your assertion about Bitcoin. I disagree with domain seizures, but gambling sites do seem to be in violation of federal law, while Bitcoin seems to be in the clear, as it is simply a virtual good.

I believe there is an inevitable collision between the government's desire to control, regulate, and tax commerce, and virtual economies. It is hardly a secret that MMORPG items and characters are often bought and sold using real world currency. Players in Magic Online spend real world currency to acquire digital cards, which can then be exchanged for paper cards, and many brick and mortar game stores use this as the source for cards they sell. In theory players could easily use games such as these for money laundering and tax evasion. I don't think the government will shut down MMORPGs, but I believe that government interference and regulation of game economies is inevitable as they grow.

As for Bitcoin, you can research the legal history of various "digital currencies" and you will see that there have already been problems in this area. The purpose of Bitcoin, a decentralized and unregulated anonymous medium of exchange is obviously contradictory to the government's aims. It all boils down to the fact that governments want a monopoly on currencies and want to be able to monitor and tax economic activity. Digital economies are growing rapidly in size and social importance and they are no more likely to be allowed to flourish unregulated than the free sharing of copyrighted media was.

Re: FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

#222

Post by pavel_lishin » Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 9:02 PM UTC

eof wrote: post #18

Wow this is huge. I used to play online poker for a living, I had a decent chunk of cash locked up for almost a year when they came down on online poker previously (UIGEA) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAFE_Port_Act#Internet_gambling... It's worth noting that these are NOT American companies. It doesn't look like anyone (players) has had their assests seized; but this is bad news for a lot of people. It also appears p…

> I had a decent chunk of cash locked up for almost a year

This isn't a judgement, but a real attempt to understand: why would you lock up a significant amount of money someplace like that?

Re: FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

#223

Post by elliottcarlson » Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 9:04 PM UTC

nika wrote: post #178

elliottcarlson wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right - as long as the nomination is exchangeable for U.S. currency and all transactions are taxed accordingly. But on the note of the parent: > Where does one draw the line between bartering with chips and paying with chips? It's not bartering when you are trying to get around things intentionally.

I like how you just assert-- sans any evidence or argument-- that they are trying to "get around things intentionally". You don't even say what things. Don't bother, I don't care. I'm just amazed at the BS this topic has elicited from people, and I am done defending these guys. All the BS is just proof of why the country is going to hell- why the FBI was able to steal $7M in gold, silver and platinum and get away wit…

Do you need a hug? Seems like you are a little stressed by this thread.

According to the documents posted, the poker sites in question are attempting to get around the legalities of U.S. citizens placing monetary wagers or bets on international gambling sites. This would be an intentional circumvention of the law.

The example I posted in regards to Pachinko parlors circumventing their local laws by allowing people to trade in fake token prizes for cash is an example of people circumventing their local law.

There is nothing wrong with bartering or the barter system - and it is perfectly legal in it's intended use, but it can be used to circumvent other laws and would be illegal based on the legal definition of intent. As for the government stealing assets illegally - yeah that's wrong. Confiscation of these .com's bothers me a great deal - but that wasn't the topic I was replying to.

I am not an "ignorant government "educated" american" - and while my self education in legal matters may very well be off at times, I am able to think critically and be reasonable in what I do and don't know.

The problem is, that you are unable to have a conversation with someone that may be right or wrong on a topic - and it might not always be right that you can convince someone of the true nature of matters even if you are right. That doesn't mean you can act like an asshole - which you are. You don't know me, and because of one statement you are more than willing to blame everything you conceive as wrong on someone like "me". Get off your pedestal and learn to have a civil conversation - it's an awesome trait to have.

Re: FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

#224

Post by Natsu » Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 9:06 PM UTC

If anyone hasn't figured it out yet, the Internet Police have come and they're starting the crackdown. So people who have been relying on the non-enforcement of certain laws, even the dumb ones, are going to get some nasty surprises soon. Or at least, that's how it looks to me.

They've killed several botnets and lots of other sites, too, if anyone has noticed.

Re: FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

#225

Post by tankenmate » Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 9:06 PM UTC

nika wrote: post #14

j79 wrote: post #6

Viewing Google cache, I noticed ub.com about us page: All financial transactions are processed by Hoop & Javelin Holdings Ltd., Vincenti Buildings, Suite 522, 14/19 Strait Street, VLT1432 Valletta, Malta, owner of this website. Can the FBI seize the domain because it's a .com TLD? Or, because transactions were occurring in the States?

The DHS (and now FBI) believes that all .com domain names are "located in the USA". It is not hard to get a judge (generally they are pretty ignorant of technology) to go along with this. Therefore, even if the registrar and the company are overseas, the FBI is able to sieze the domains. Since I doubt the US government will start respecting international law (and ICAAN is international agreements, to which the US gov…

No, it's not that the DOJ believes that all .com domains are US. It is because Verisign has the contract to run .com, and Verisign is a US company. An US court can force an US company to comply.

Re: FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

#226

Post by tankenmate » Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 9:09 PM UTC

barefoot wrote: post #66

mrtron wrote: post #32

Online gambling is legal almost everywhere - how does the FBI have the ability to do this?

They are using a TLD (top level domain name) operated by a US company (Verizon). The government hasn't gone out of it's jurisdiction, technically speaking.

Verisign, not Verizon.

Re: FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

#227

Post by shpxnvz » Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 9:14 PM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #129

nika wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I won't attempt to argue that the Liberty Dollar wasn't a misguided enterprise. Even when the law is on your side, the fact that the government controls the courts assures that you'll never get a fair trial. You're misunderstanding the constitution and what the "right to create currency" means. There are many currencies in circulation, and there have been many state and even private currencies over the years. Even to…

"You're misunderstanding the constitution and what the 'right to create currency' means." You may be correct, I have noticed a strong correlation however between how the government behaves with respect to alternative currencies and my understanding of the legalities of same. And while I also recognize that correlation is not causation, I find this sort of correlation useful in predicting whether or not my future acti…

And while I also recognize that correlation is not causation, I find this sort of correlation useful in predicting whether or not my future actions would be viewed as "sanctioned" or "not sanctioned" by law enforcement authorities.

It's certainly true that behaving as the government wants you to results in less hassle, but we should be clear that "not sanctioned by law enforcement authorities" is absolutely not the same as "illegal" in the U.S.

Re: FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

#228

Post by laut » Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 9:17 PM UTC

InclinedPlane wrote: post #8

I for one am incredibly glad! Nothing is a more serious menace to our society and our way of life than ... online gambling. I'm glad that in this time of unprecedented natural disasters, geopolitical unrest, and financial crisis our government still has its priorities straight.

I guess you are for alcohol prohibition too?

Re: FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

#229

Post by ig1 » Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 9:19 PM UTC

It's worth noting that most gambling sites warn their employees against travelling to the US. The US has in the past arrested employees of foreign firms for actions which are entirely legal in their home country but illegal in the US.

And it's not just gambling sites, in 2001 Dmitry Sklyarov was arrested on a similar basis.

Re: FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

#230

Post by fexl » Fri, Apr 15, 2011, 9:23 PM UTC

_ouxp wrote: post #94

nika wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're misremembering. The primary educational effort of the Liberty Dollar focused on, whenever someone asked what it was, or you offered it, making clear that it wasn't US currency. Nobody associated with the Liberty Dollar in any official capacity would call it "a new dollar coin" and as the word "coin" is one of the magic ones that denotes government money. They might say "its 20 dollars in silver" or "a silver p…

Even "it's 20 dollars in silver" is iffy. To most, dollar means USD, and there's no constant dollars-silver ratio any more. This is the video that I was misremembering (works in newest VLC): http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20050206004912/http://www.l... via: http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20050206004912/http://www.l...

I always thought they should have used the phrase "Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price" (M.S.R.P). But I would actually favor striking the word "dollar" altogether. People can just use ordinary silver pieces bearing the mark "One Troy Ounce", which describes its physical mass only.