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CEO of Cyber Fraud Startup NS8 Arrested by FBI, Facing Fraud Charges

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21–30 of 166 posts

Re: CEO of Cyber Fraud Startup NS8 Arrested by FBI, Facing Fraud Charges

#21

Have VCs started skimping on DD because problems come up so rarely? Lightspeed (who led the last round for these guys) isn't a no-name firm, they invested in Snap, GrubHub, Telegram, etc. Surely they have the experience to find out gigantic major problems like this? This feels like something that should've come up in diligence before they sent them 120 million bucks... There are so many places it could've shown up or…

This is because who pays for Due Diligence... if you are paying you can influence it. I'd love for there to be a firm that did a 50/50 escrow for DD.

Re: CEO of Cyber Fraud Startup NS8 Arrested by FBI, Facing Fraud Charges

#22

I feel sorry for any CEO who actually steps down to spend more time with his/her family. That explanation has now more or less been completely co-opted by "Our CEO got caught in an embarrassing scandal and they need to fade from the public eye for a bit." I now assume that anyone who gives that reason on their way out must have done something terrible that is yet or about to come to light.

I never feel sorry for CEOs.

Re: CEO of Cyber Fraud Startup NS8 Arrested by FBI, Facing Fraud Charges

#23

Being an executive at a (substantially smaller) SaaS startup I have no idea how having up to 90% of your revenue be fabricated could happen without others knowing: - where are the contracts corresponding to revenue? Yeah they are SaaS focused on SMB but this is a financial product, there will be contracts, NDAs, etc - if the majority of the customers are fake there is such little load on the system. How does engineer…

- where are the contracts corresponding to revenue? Yeah they are an SMB SaaS but this is financial, there will be contracts, NDAs, etc

SMB, especially the small end of SMB, does not often have contracts. It's more subscription based. That said, there were 2 versions of the software running at NS8. One was the original software that Adam Rogas and a co-founder created early on. That version was rather "opaque" and reported growing customer numbers every month. The newer version of the software was controlled by the product dev team but still reliant on the original software in some key areas. Basically, everything was obfuscated well enough to confuse everyone to the point where answers of, "it's a limitation of the original software" were taken at face value.

- if the customers are fake there is no load on the system. How does engineering not figure that out?

There were real customers and the customer growth was happening, especially in 2020. The problem is that the customer base and growth was nowhere near what Adam Rogas was cooking up on the backend.

- How does no one see an insanely low COGs when paying the cloud services bills, or the lack of allocated resources when looking in the management interfaces?

COGs and other bills were kept relatively high. It's also why the company hired 200+ people, to make the story all the more believable.

- How does no one notice a complete lack of analytics or actions being generated by all the supposed customers?

Again, real numbers were difficult to gather for excuses given repeatedly by Adam Rogas and others charged with providing those numbers. I'm not saying that others were complicit in the scam, but that they were (at least) being fed the same excuses the rest were. Investments were never made to bring visibility to the customer metrics. Was this a red flag? Yes, but then why are investors giving NS8 so much money? It's hindsight 20/20.

- Managing cash flow would be very hard. Finance is going to see all this revenue coming in and want to scale. The VCs are going to want to see money being spent on marketing activities etc. to further the growth. If there’s no corresponding revenue being spent to acquire customers but tons of revenue coming in that’s a giant red flag

Right, so plenty of money was being spent across the board. There were 2 bank accounts according to the DOJ and SEC complaints. The account for "customer revenue" was solely controlled by Adam Rogas. The other account held the investment funds that paid all the bills. Is this super shady? Yep. And it seems there was an NS8 whistleblower who kicked off the initial SEC investigation and then the FBI getting involved as well.

Re: CEO of Cyber Fraud Startup NS8 Arrested by FBI, Facing Fraud Charges

#24

I feel sorry for any CEO who actually steps down to spend more time with his/her family. That explanation has now more or less been completely co-opted by "Our CEO got caught in an embarrassing scandal and they need to fade from the public eye for a bit." I now assume that anyone who gives that reason on their way out must have done something terrible that is yet or about to come to light.

This recently came up when Kellyanne Conway stepped down. She said it was to spend more time with her family, no one believed her, but all evidence points to it really truly being the case. Her husband also stepped down from his job and her daughter stopped tweeting about how much she hates her parents.

Re: CEO of Cyber Fraud Startup NS8 Arrested by FBI, Facing Fraud Charges

#25

I feel sorry for any CEO who actually steps down to spend more time with his/her family. That explanation has now more or less been completely co-opted by "Our CEO got caught in an embarrassing scandal and they need to fade from the public eye for a bit." I now assume that anyone who gives that reason on their way out must have done something terrible that is yet or about to come to light.

It’s like Thiel’s point about how monopolies always talk about the open market and small fish talk about being a monopoly. In this case, if you’re actually stepping down to spend time with family, you say “I’m looking for my next challenge.”

Re: CEO of Cyber Fraud Startup NS8 Arrested by FBI, Facing Fraud Charges

#26
post #24

I feel sorry for any CEO who actually steps down to spend more time with his/her family. That explanation has now more or less been completely co-opted by "Our CEO got caught in an embarrassing scandal and they need to fade from the public eye for a bit." I now assume that anyone who gives that reason on their way out must have done something terrible that is yet or about to come to light.

This recently came up when Kellyanne Conway stepped down. She said it was to spend more time with her family, no one believed her, but all evidence points to it really truly being the case. Her husband also stepped down from his job and her daughter stopped tweeting about how much she hates her parents.

That’s a bit of a unique case; they had very publicly visible family issues.

Re: CEO of Cyber Fraud Startup NS8 Arrested by FBI, Facing Fraud Charges

#27

Being an executive at a (substantially smaller) SaaS startup I have no idea how having up to 90% of your revenue be fabricated could happen without others knowing: - where are the contracts corresponding to revenue? Yeah they are SaaS focused on SMB but this is a financial product, there will be contracts, NDAs, etc - if the majority of the customers are fake there is such little load on the system. How does engineer…

Because the larger startups are driven by people who know financial engineering... this guy got caught because the money stopped (due to layoffs). Noone gives a shit when they're getting paid.

Nope. He got caught when it was discovered that the "customer revenue" bank account was being manipulated to look like tens of millions were in there when it was more like tens of thousands.

The other bank account had tens of millions in there thanks to the investment money.

The layoffs came once the board faced the truth of the matter and Adam Rogas suddenly resigned.

Re: CEO of Cyber Fraud Startup NS8 Arrested by FBI, Facing Fraud Charges

#28
> It seems ironic that the co-founder of a company designed to prevent online fraud would engage in fraudulent activity himself

I don't find that ironic at all. Having worked in the security space for a long time, it seems like the best people in the business are the ones who would be great at committing the crimes if not for their own morality.

Someone with a weak sense of morals could easily turn to evil.

Re: CEO of Cyber Fraud Startup NS8 Arrested by FBI, Facing Fraud Charges

#29

Have VCs started skimping on DD because problems come up so rarely? Lightspeed (who led the last round for these guys) isn't a no-name firm, they invested in Snap, GrubHub, Telegram, etc. Surely they have the experience to find out gigantic major problems like this? This feels like something that should've come up in diligence before they sent them 120 million bucks... There are so many places it could've shown up or…

This is because who pays for Due Diligence... if you are paying you can influence it. I'd love for there to be a firm that did a 50/50 escrow for DD.

The VC firm pays for their own DD. Certainly if they are leading the round.

Initial meeting-> NDA -> some due diligence -> letter of intent/term sheet (depending on the transaction) -> 30-45 days of very deep due diligence.

Re: CEO of Cyber Fraud Startup NS8 Arrested by FBI, Facing Fraud Charges

#30
post #26
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This recently came up when Kellyanne Conway stepped down. She said it was to spend more time with her family, no one believed her, but all evidence points to it really truly being the case. Her husband also stepped down from his job and her daughter stopped tweeting about how much she hates her parents.

That’s a bit of a unique case; they had very publicly visible family issues.

Exactly, that's the only reason anyone believes her at all. If not for their very public issues, I don't think anyone would have believed her.
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