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FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

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Re: FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

#131

Post by socksy »

tybris wrote: post #89
vnorby wrote: post #5

WHOA, that's really big news for the poker industry. These are all very large, very big businesses (talking billions of dollars) in the US. Can anyone confirm if their poker clients are still functioning properly?

I don't know about the client, but I imagine fulltiltpoker.co.uk will work just fine for the foreseeable future. There is no force in this universe that will keep the British from gambling... and if there is, they already have bets on it.

At the moment it redirects to the .com — I can see them changing that in a hurry.

Re: FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

#132

Post by smokeyj »

samfoo wrote: post #96
smokeyj wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Constitutional law is so much more complicated than, "this is what the document says". If you can't read the document and deduce it's meaning, why use this document? Is this an emperors clothe type of thing?

Because the world is a complicated place where a single (short) document is unlikely to fairly represent anything other than guiding principles. Having guiding principles is hugely important and valuable, just as giving people the leeway to make judgement calls on those principles is. Justice shouldn't be black and white.

If constitutionality can't be deduced by the constitution, then what deduces it? The opinion of some judges?

If our fate is in the hands of a few judges (it is), doesn't this void our "democratic principles"?

I can't help but feel our understanding of government isn't much more than catch phrases and sentiment. Patriotism, we the people, one nation under god, the greater good, public servants, all total bs. If we criticized the processes of government like we did start-ups (such as the costs of value added), we'd be a whole lot wealthier. /rant

Re: FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

#134

Post by _ouxp »

nika wrote: post #106
_ouxp wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even "it's 20 dollars in silver" is iffy. To most, dollar means USD, and there's no constant dollars-silver ratio any more. This is the video that I was misremembering (works in newest VLC): http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20050206004912/http://www.l... via: http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20050206004912/http://www.l...

Alas, the wayback machine won't let me see the video, but even the name of it is bad since it contains the word "coin". Most may assume that "dollar" means USD, but that is not the legal meaning. Dollar is a generic term, as Canadians use it, for instance. But further, if I were to say "20 USD in Silver" I'd be referring to the US dollar and I'd be naming a price for this amount of silver. This is no different than s…

I also agree with your take on Asset Forfeiture. In any case, I wasn't being snarky when I said "misremembered". I had, in fact, misremembered parts of the video, though the sense of recipients not being fully in on it remains.

Re: FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

#135

Post by nika »

Symmetry wrote: post #109
nika wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be cut and dry if you could show any "utterances" from the Liberty Dollar / NORFED, where they represented their products as US government money. They did not, and further, they were careful to put disclaimers on their warehouse receipts, and various features on the physical pieces to make it clear that this was not being represented as government money. For instance, ever piece contained a copyright stateme…

The law he cites rather explicitly said "in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design" are all covered. Metal coins of original design are still illegal to manufacture (though I'd agree they shouldn't be).

The first definition of coin: "a piece of metal stamped and issued by the authority of a government for use as mony"

These were not coins. They were not issued under government authority, nor were they represented as such.

Re: FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

#136

Post by cookiecaper »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #129
nika wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I won't attempt to argue that the Liberty Dollar wasn't a misguided enterprise. Even when the law is on your side, the fact that the government controls the courts assures that you'll never get a fair trial. You're misunderstanding the constitution and what the "right to create currency" means. There are many currencies in circulation, and there have been many state and even private currencies over the years. Even to…

"You're misunderstanding the constitution and what the 'right to create currency' means." You may be correct, I have noticed a strong correlation however between how the government behaves with respect to alternative currencies and my understanding of the legalities of same. And while I also recognize that correlation is not causation, I find this sort of correlation useful in predicting whether or not my future acti…

Right, but the point of this discussion is indicating the abuses the government perpetrates on the people, not the practicality of running an alternative enterprise if you don't want your life destroyed. Everyone knows that doing something like Liberty Dollar is greatly frowned upon, and that the feds will dispose of that as quickly as they can. Some people choose to do it anyway for the effect. You can think of it as a protest, I guess.

Re: FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

#137

Post by williamdix »

nika wrote: post #99
cynicalkane wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Currency refers to physical money. A gift card isn't "money" because it's only a medium of exchange at a few specific places. Credit cards aren't currency because they are simply pointers to a line of credit, which isn't physical money. The Liberty Dollar guy was found guilty of imitating U.S. currency . The OP believes the application of the law is unjust because, mentally, he's equivocated currency with other numis…

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/currency 1. something that is used as a medium of exchange; money. 2.general acceptance; prevalence; vogue. 3. a time or period during which something is widely accepted and circulated. 4. the fact or quality of being widely accepted and circulated from person to person. 5. circulation, as of coin. Currrency can refer to physical money. But it also refers to gift cards, visa car…

I'm not sure that the dictionary definition of currency really matters here. I assume/hope that there is a legal definition of currency. Also, I think it will be very difficult to discuss this constructively without legal opinions on the definition of currency.

Re: FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

#140

Post by elliottcarlson »

colanderman wrote: post #125
ChuckMcM wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lived in Las Vegas in the 70's when the Secret Service stepped in and shut down the process of people paying for things with Casino Chips. For those not familiar with them, a Casino Chip has a current denomination ($1, $5, $25, etc) and the name of the Casino on it. For a long time Casinos, as service to their customers, didn't care if you played with another Casino's chips so you could just carry them around from…

This doesn't make any sense to me... is bartering illegal? Where does one draw the line between bartering with chips and paying with chips?

Depends on the intentions... are you a farmer bartering your crops for another farmers meat; or are you knowingly circumventing laws.

This is similar to the way Pachinko parlors work in Japan and Taiwan - you collect a ball from the machine when you win, and with a certain amount of balls you can receive various token prizes. This prize can then be redeemed around the corner at a different location for cash. Cash was exchanged - there were just middlemen involved - but it still comes down to gambling.

If you are intending to replace currency with something else not produced by the government, then you are not bartering, you are introducing private currency and that is illegal.

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