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Facebook Accused of Watching Instagram Users Through Cameras

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Re: Facebook Accused of Watching Instagram Users Through Cameras

#81

Post by troughway »

wil421 wrote: post #61
AndrewThrowaway wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Developer: Damn camera takes almost half a second to start! Tech lead: Can we just leave it on or pre-start it somehow? Developer: But... Tech lead: I will think of something. Tech lead to management: We made camera start 150% faster! Management: Wow wow wow. It is so great to have such an experienced tech lead we pay so much for. Tech lead drives into the sunset with his brand new Tesla.

You forgot the part where Tech Lead creates a YouTube channel. His Tesla is featured prominently.

Hey guys it's Ex-Google, Ex-Facebook, Ex-Tesla Tech Lead

Re: Facebook Accused of Watching Instagram Users Through Cameras

#82

Post by almyndz »

SkyMarshal wrote: post #72
numpad0 wrote: post #67

Being lawful-evil person I am, I once imagined a “news” app such that display content or suggestion ever so unnoticeably slightly change depending on how user behaves judged by device camera. A facial expression ML model would be trained beforehand so camera data would not have to be collected, but only pushed to users along app updates, and content would be analyzed and encoded at server side to determine what users…

I wonder if people make distinct enough facial expressions while reading online content for this to work. For myself, I pretty much stare blankly at the screen the whole time without much change in my expression. The ML would have to be very good at detecting slight nuance.

yeah, usually when I'm reading the news I'm only screaming on the inside

Re: Facebook Accused of Watching Instagram Users Through Cameras

#83

Post by adpirz »

srtjstjsj wrote: post #65
rbg246 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are saying.. A developer went to their tech lead and said 'hey we can make the app much better by leaving the camera on all the time saves 200ms on camera startup time' Tech lead: this is brilliant no potential problems here Tech lead to management team: got this great new feature, we leave the camera on all the time makes the app 200ms faster. Management: wow that's great can't see any problem with that, no c…

Is it Facebook's fault that the OS had a bug that triggers the camera notification when the camera is in standby mode? There's no reputational damage because the world is already split between people who think FB is the devil and people who don't care.

Worth noting this split is like 3 / 97.

Re: Facebook Accused of Watching Instagram Users Through Cameras

#84

Post by zentiggr »

jariel wrote: post #77
rbg246 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are saying.. A developer went to their tech lead and said 'hey we can make the app much better by leaving the camera on all the time saves 200ms on camera startup time' Tech lead: this is brilliant no potential problems here Tech lead to management team: got this great new feature, we leave the camera on all the time makes the app 200ms faster. Management: wow that's great can't see any problem with that, no c…

No, he's saying that API usage is not obvious, things are complicated and not obvious and that mistakes happen. I don't believe for one second that FB is going to be purposefully taking 'illegal videos' of people. Nor do I believe Facebook is even evil. It's just a social network, end of story.

Amoral does no less harm overall than evil, it's just done to 'the masses', not particular targets.

No one at Facebook gets to claim they were just following orders if they have _any_ understanding of the possible consequences of their work.

(If you believe the authors/operators that specifically maximize profits over responsibility are not responsible for their outcomes, you should read back into the posting about PG&E in CA: deliberately ignoring the wear & tear on 100 year old support hooks on high-tension power lines, thus sparking the fire that burned down Paradise, CA.)

Re: Facebook Accused of Watching Instagram Users Through Cameras

#85

Post by boringg »

srtjstjsj wrote: post #65
rbg246 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are saying.. A developer went to their tech lead and said 'hey we can make the app much better by leaving the camera on all the time saves 200ms on camera startup time' Tech lead: this is brilliant no potential problems here Tech lead to management team: got this great new feature, we leave the camera on all the time makes the app 200ms faster. Management: wow that's great can't see any problem with that, no c…

Is it Facebook's fault that the OS had a bug that triggers the camera notification when the camera is in standby mode? There's no reputational damage because the world is already split between people who think FB is the devil and people who don't care.

I like how it’s people who think Facebook and people who don’t care. Where are the pro Facebook evangelists these days?

Re: Facebook Accused of Watching Instagram Users Through Cameras

#86

Post by AndrewThrowaway »

troughway wrote: post #81
wil421 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You forgot the part where Tech Lead creates a YouTube channel. His Tesla is featured prominently.

Hey guys it's Ex-Google, Ex-Facebook, Ex-Tesla Tech Lead

Engineer: Damn rear view camera takes almost half a second to start!

Teach lead: Can we just keep it always on?

Engineer: But it will degrade camera module and it will go out of order in couple of years...

Tech lead: Perfect!

Tech lead to management: I have just made you a few billion dollars in camera upgrades!

Management: Astonished pikachu.

Tech lead goes to brag about it on his Youtube channel.

Re: Facebook Accused of Watching Instagram Users Through Cameras

#87

Post by skocznymroczny »

washadjeffmad wrote: post #26
jjbinx007 wrote: post #16

Even if this was true, which I doubt, what would Facebook actually gain by doing this? They'd see a person's face from an unflattering angle with an unflattering expression. Or they'd see whatever the front camera sees at the time, which in my case right now is the back of my phone case or possibly the floor. I don't see that as valuable data to mine.

They'd be able to track what your eyes focused on and for how long, whether you wore glasses, were bald, your approximate age and ethnicity, whether you have facial hair, your reactions to content, and a lot of other behaviors and metrics that would never cross your mind. Instagram already does all of the above, but so does a lot of digital signage in shopping districts, in addition to tracking your BT HWID, to monit…

> your reactions to content

do you actually "react" to content? Like chuckle or make any other facial expressions? I just scroll and scroll and scroll with a neutral expression.

Re: Facebook Accused of Watching Instagram Users Through Cameras

#88

Post by CaptArmchair »

can16358p wrote: post #9

Don't want to be the devil's advocate here but just because camera is on doesn't mean anything is being recorded. As an iOS developer who worked with apps that access camera frequently, I can confidently say that it's just a UX optimization. Starting the camera takes a brief few hundred milliseconds which is easily noticable from a user perspective. By keeping the camera ready, they are making the experience smoother…

> Don't want to be the devil's advocate here but just because camera is on doesn't mean anything is being recorded.

This is about consumer trust.

To the vast majority of consumers, a smartphone is a magic box with a lens and a display. What happens inside - how data is stored and processed, how the OS functions, how apps work,... - has been abstracted away behind those "UX optimized" interfaces you just mentioned.

Consumer don't buy black box devices because they trust the few big companies that manufacture the hardware and software: they buy them because there aren't any alternatives that provide the same level of convenience, and can solidly guarantee a due level of privacy as to what happens behind the screens.

When consumers buy a smartphone or download an app, they have to blindly put their trust in manufacturers acting in good faith. And just that has been damaged by plenty of scandals in the past decade.

So, next time you're in public, try to pay attention to this: how many people have taped off the camera of their devices? And why is this product a thing? [1]

[1] https://www.amazon.com/s?k=webcam+cover

It's because there's a fundamental trust issue. Consumers tape those things on their devices because they don't feel in control of what a device does or doesn't record. Covering the camera is literally the only way they feel they are 100% in control.

So, that should leave you with two questions here. (a) If there's a fundamental trust issue about "magic" technology, do you think people will remotely accept any rationalization about "UX optimization" and "not recording" (e.g. your asking them to trust them on your word)? and (b) If people go so far as to tape off their camera lenses because of a deep trust issue, how much sense does it even make to implement such an UX optimization in the first place? Isn't that a tone deaf act of sorts?

I totally understand why this happens, and I can see the convenience of having a snappy camera. It's just that the technical solution to enable this, flies against what people perceive as acceptable.

Re: Facebook Accused of Watching Instagram Users Through Cameras

#89

Post by userbinator »

loriverkutya wrote: post #48
zupreme wrote: post #45

This is why iOS is badly in need of a “Task Manager” and of an “Event Viewer”, so that users may easily audit what resources each app is currently accessing, and which resources they have accessed in the past, including logging each instance of camera or microphone use by any app. Apple has the power to easily mitigate these concerns - yet they do not. Why?

Because my mother is using an iphone and nothing you described would make sense for her. She is pretty good with tech and understands how computers and phones work, but she just does not want to browse a process list to see which process is using the camera.

but she just does not want to browse a process list to see which process is using the camera.

How do you know until you've tried?

At the risk of provoking a tangential discussion, I don't think keeping users "in the dark" about what's happening is ever a good idea. They don't have to learn if they really don't want to, but deliberate opaqueness is bad --- if anything, it only leads to more learned helplessness and ignorance. Of course, that's probably what companies want in general, since it means they can control users more easily...

Re: Facebook Accused of Watching Instagram Users Through Cameras

#90

Post by maxsilver »

rbg246 wrote: post #54
can16358p wrote: post #9

Don't want to be the devil's advocate here but just because camera is on doesn't mean anything is being recorded. As an iOS developer who worked with apps that access camera frequently, I can confidently say that it's just a UX optimization. Starting the camera takes a brief few hundred milliseconds which is easily noticable from a user perspective. By keeping the camera ready, they are making the experience smoother…

So you are saying.. A developer went to their tech lead and said 'hey we can make the app much better by leaving the camera on all the time saves 200ms on camera startup time' Tech lead: this is brilliant no potential problems here Tech lead to management team: got this great new feature, we leave the camera on all the time makes the app 200ms faster. Management: wow that's great can't see any problem with that, no c…

> Management: wow that's great can't see any problem with that, no chance of reputational damage there.

Absolutely agree, but it also wouldn't surprise me if they didn't think about it or didn't care.

If 2020 has taught me anything, it's that a surprisingly high number of people / companies / groups managers and/or leaders, do not think about or care about long-term repercussions of the vast majority of their decisions.

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