Material Shell – A modern desktop interface for GNOME • Hacker News Board

Re: Material Shell – A modern desktop interface for GNOME

#251

Post by jeromenerf » Thu, Sep 17, 2020, 12:02 PM UTC

nsonha wrote: post #236

jeromenerf wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do. I don’t need them when every pixel counts but I think they are useful If not pleasing in many cases. That’s why I created what I believe was the first tiling wm "useless gaps" patch for dwm 10 years ago. Since then, it has been adopted by other wm, i3 being a notable exception. I don’t use a DE, but I guess a little space between those fat bars and backdrop’d windows might help to see through the bloat.

I was referring more to the excessive padding in material design in general, but yeah I'm not a fan of gaps so pairing that with gaps in tilling seems extra bloated to me.

Oh yes, I see what you mean.

I have yet to see an enjoyable material design app. With the same underlying motivations, I have better appreciation of Apple iOS interface guidelines.

Re: Material Shell – A modern desktop interface for GNOME

#252

Post by heavyset_go » Thu, Sep 17, 2020, 12:37 PM UTC

bmn__ wrote: post #250

heavyset_go wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

KDE uses less memory than Xfce does.

> KDE uses less memory than Xfce does. KDE user here. What you say is false. Xfce is quite primitive in comparison, it has a miniscule amount of features and hence gets away with using less memory. Observational data: 3570M kwin_x11 (window manager) 2512M plasmashell (task panel) 1411M krunner (application launcher) 895M kded5 (?) 532M kactivitymanagerd (multiple desktops) 422M polkit-kde-authentication-agent-1 (?) 3…

You're looking at virtual memory and not resident memory. I've never had KDE take up 3.5GB of memory on a machine with 4GB, 8GB or 32GB of memory. Right now, kwin_x11 occupies 110MB of resident memory on my machine while claiming 3.4GB of virtual memory. Similarly, konsole occupies 54MB of resident memory and 928MB of virtual memory on my machine.

Virtual memory[1] is not at all the same thing as resident memory[2].

I've experienced similar amounts of memory usage to the stats in this article when it comes to KDE vs Xfce memory usage[3].

[1] https://linuxconfig.org/ps-output-difference-between-vsz-vs-...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resident_set_size

[3] https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2019/10/23/bold-...

Re: Material Shell – A modern desktop interface for GNOME

#253

Post by JeremyNT » Thu, Sep 17, 2020, 3:56 PM UTC

aszen wrote: post #36

Tried it briefly, I currently use i3 on ubuntu and found it to be much much slower than that, the animations while pretty get pretty jarring once u start switching windows too often. I much prefer the i3 style of just showing a blinking cursor on switching windows. The grid layout is interesting but I found it strange that the all tabs are shown along the left side in split mode. It would be interesting to see how th…

> Tried it briefly, I currently use i3 on ubuntu and found it to be much much slower than that, the animations while pretty get pretty jarring once u start switching windows too often. I much prefer the i3 style of just showing a blinking cursor on switching windows.

I've seen this complaint about GNOME in general before, so I want to mention that animations can be disabled or sped up in GNOME. There's a toggle to disable animations in GNOME completely (using the GNOME tweak tool, in the general setting). There are also add-ons to change their speed (I use Impatience [0]).

[0] https://github.com/timbertson/gnome-shell-impatience

Re: Material Shell – A modern desktop interface for GNOME

#254

Post by slipheen » Thu, Sep 17, 2020, 4:47 PM UTC

Symbiote wrote: post #134

bobince wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very this. My mind is not app-centric. I want the shell where I'm looking at logs, the editor where I'm taking notes, the browser where I'm checking some doc. I don't care to think about which terminal application the shell is inside, select that, then find I've opened a different terminal window and have to search through the windows separately. I don't care whether the doc is loaded in Firefox or Chromium so don't…

I miss an older KDE feature, which was custom tabbed windows. You could easily Alt+Tab between windows, and then use another shortcut to move between tabs. https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/archive/kde44... That way, I could put the service logs/terminal on one side, and the IDE and e.g. running website in another window. You can get this with i3 or any other tiling window manager, but I found too many c…

fwiw, this (Material Shell) feels very similar to that.

I can have a tab for Thunderbird, Slack, and Jira in my "Communication" workspace, and Meta-A/Meta-D to swap between them.

Each has a little tab in the top bar that highlights the currently selected tab.

Re: Material Shell – A modern desktop interface for GNOME

#255

Post by bmn__ » Thu, Sep 17, 2020, 8:01 PM UTC

heavyset_go wrote: post #252

bmn__ wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> KDE uses less memory than Xfce does. KDE user here. What you say is false. Xfce is quite primitive in comparison, it has a miniscule amount of features and hence gets away with using less memory. Observational data: 3570M kwin_x11 (window manager) 2512M plasmashell (task panel) 1411M krunner (application launcher) 895M kded5 (?) 532M kactivitymanagerd (multiple desktops) 422M polkit-kde-authentication-agent-1 (?) 3…

You're looking at virtual memory and not resident memory. I've never had KDE take up 3.5GB of memory on a machine with 4GB, 8GB or 32GB of memory. Right now, kwin_x11 occupies 110MB of resident memory on my machine while claiming 3.4GB of virtual memory. Similarly, konsole occupies 54MB of resident memory and 928MB of virtual memory on my machine. Virtual memory[1] is not at all the same thing as resident memory[2].…

> You're looking at virtual memory and not resident memory.

That does not change anything in the conclusion.

      685M kwin_x11
      417M plasmashell
      161M krunner
    74820k kded5
    58612k kdeconnectd
    53368k polkit-kde-authentication-agent-1
    52460k ksmserver
    50364k kaccess
    49488k plasma-browser-integration-host
    48568k kwalletd
    44268k kglobalaccel5
    44044k org_kde_powerdevil
    44020k klauncher
    40384k kactivitymanagerd
    26068k kdeinit5
    24432k xembedsniproxy
    21508k kscreen_backend_launcher
    18964k file.so [kdeinit5] file local:/run/user/1000/klauncherwpWDlK.1.slave-socket
    11672k kio_http_cache_cleaner
     3984k kdesud
     3652k xsettingsd
       96k start_kdeinit
    
      144M kate
    96464k konsole

----

    73828k xfdesktop
    59788k xfwm4
    44508k xfce4-screensaver
    38552k xfce4-appfinder
    36260k xfce4-panel
    29392k xfce4-session
    29216k wrapper-2.0 /usr/lib64/xfce4/panel/plugins/libactions.so
    27156k wrapper-2.0 /usr/lib64/xfce4/panel/plugins/libsystray.so
    27064k Thunar
    25284k xfsettingsd
    25284k xfsettingsd
    25140k tumblerd
    17656k xfce4-notifyd
    15248k xfce4-power-manager
     5880k xfconfd
    
    54492k mousepad
    51244k xfce4-terminal

The findings from the article are non-reproducible, too. When I run the desktop environments with a text editor and terminal each, `free -h` reports a clear difference in the "used" column:

    KDE 5.19.4:   1.2Gi
    Xfce 4.14.5:  521Mi

Re: Material Shell – A modern desktop interface for GNOME

#256

Post by valenciarose » Thu, Sep 17, 2020, 8:36 PM UTC

choward wrote: post #192

arendtio wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about providing an explanation for those words? - minimal: limited features set aka either you like it in 10 seconds or you don't - streamlined: good looking?!? - sleek: combination of streamlined and minimal? - simple: IMO even more overused than 'modern' and as diverse in its meaning - opinionated: There is exactly one way of doing it right and either you like it or you don't, but it might come with an extensiv…

Modern is associated with your definition and has a positive connotation. However, it really just means it's new. That doesn't necessarily mean the things you listed. But it does mean that it's probably under active development, the creator has it fresh in their mind, and you can probably contact them.

The word Modern absolutely does not mean new, recent, or contemporary in the context of design (or really in reference to any visual presentation). The design of Walkman was innovative and new when it came out, but at no point in time did it qualify as Modern.

Modernism, as applied to the design of tools and other useful objects, was codified by Dieter Rams half a century ago. The recent resurgence of Modernism as applied to computer software and hardware is not the result of inevitable progress. It’s the result of Steve Jobs deliberately choosing Modernism in the early 90s (although this wasn’t apparent in products until his return).

https://ifworlddesignguide.com/design-specials/dieter-rams-1...

Re: Material Shell – A modern desktop interface for GNOME

#257

Post by mleonhard » Thu, Sep 17, 2020, 9:01 PM UTC

yrro wrote: post #39

I find the app-based window navigation in vanilla GNOME 3 rather frustrating, and try as I might, I just can't get comfortable navigating between what I think of as applications. This is because I have a few applications (Firefox, Terminal) that are really not applications in and of themselves; the applications are really Outlook, JIRA, Confluence, Slack, OpenShift (logged in as cluster admin), OpenShift (logged in a…

I stopped using multiple monitors because managing windows across them is difficult. Now i use a single large monitor.

I wish a company would make a good portable computer to fit my work style:

- tall 20" x 12" matte screen with built-in stand to raise it up to eye level

- detachable corded tenting keyboard

- detachable corded tenting vertical mouse

- hot-swappable battery with various weights available

- thin 20-foot power cable with magnetic release on both ends

- vertical docking station with battery charge-level indicator

Re: Material Shell – A modern desktop interface for GNOME

#258

Post by forgotmypw17 » Thu, Sep 17, 2020, 9:04 PM UTC

mleonhard wrote: post #257

yrro wrote: post #39

I find the app-based window navigation in vanilla GNOME 3 rather frustrating, and try as I might, I just can't get comfortable navigating between what I think of as applications. This is because I have a few applications (Firefox, Terminal) that are really not applications in and of themselves; the applications are really Outlook, JIRA, Confluence, Slack, OpenShift (logged in as cluster admin), OpenShift (logged in a…

I stopped using multiple monitors because managing windows across them is difficult. Now i use a single large monitor. I wish a company would make a good portable computer to fit my work style: - tall 20" x 12" matte screen with built-in stand to raise it up to eye level - detachable corded tenting keyboard - detachable corded tenting vertical mouse - hot-swappable battery with various weights available - thin 20-foo…

This sounds like an amazing design.

What does "tenting" mean in this case?

Re: Material Shell – A modern desktop interface for GNOME

#259

Post by arendtio » Thu, Sep 17, 2020, 10:07 PM UTC

pimlottc wrote: post #212

arendtio wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about providing an explanation for those words? - minimal: limited features set aka either you like it in 10 seconds or you don't - streamlined: good looking?!? - sleek: combination of streamlined and minimal? - simple: IMO even more overused than 'modern' and as diverse in its meaning - opinionated: There is exactly one way of doing it right and either you like it or you don't, but it might come with an extensiv…

I think those are all valid interpretations that give some useful information about the product. I tend to think of the words as staking a position vs its opposite, so you at least have some idea where the product lies on at least one axis. - minimal vs maximal: "we favor fewer few design elements vs more" - streamlined vs not streamlined: "we have intentially chosen to focus on a few specific goals" - sleek vs rough…

Another alternative opposite of 'modern' might be 'classic'?

Re: Material Shell – A modern desktop interface for GNOME

#260

Post by Elv13 » Thu, Sep 17, 2020, 11:22 PM UTC

eximius wrote: post #240

mqus wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not actually sure what the argument is to not use it. I'm currently using it, but if I switch away, it will be because there is no wayland support yet.

Heh, valid point.

Patches welcome :P

But really, someone went quite far a couple year ago. Unfortunately he lost interest before the finish line. There is no such thing as a WM port from X11 to wayland. It's a full backend rewrite.

The design that would have worked (after like 4 rewrite), but wasn't completed, was to have a WLroot process, then some custom protocols to talk to an awesome "client". This was a fork of the old codebase with the X11 code stripped out and the implementation of those little private protocols between the wlroot "server" and awesome "client".

Using this model, the event loops lived in different process and AwesomeWM could restart without losing all applications. It did render stuff, including the wibar and clients (without titlebars). But that's about it. It never got to the point you could dog-food it.