This electrical transmission tower has a problem • Hacker News Board

Re: This electrical transmission tower has a problem

#271

Post by machello13 » Thu, Sep 17, 2020, 12:01 PM UTC

resonantjacket5 wrote: post #217

tshaddox wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With proper engineering and maintenance, PG&E could probably reduce the frequency of fires significantly, but there's always going to be a non-zero risk of fire, both from power lines and other sources, and it seems basically inevitable that one of them would have started another fire at some point. I don’t understand. You’re conceding that if PG&E were a competent and responsible company they could significantly r…

No the root of the problem is that there's too much forest that hasn't burned. Blaming PG&E is missing the actual problem. For instance the Beirut explosion was the fault from the welders causing the explosion. Yes, but the larger and more important issue is why are there so many explosives in the first place? California's mismanagement with it's forest is the same issue. These forests should be periodically burned t…

It's possible for more than one cause to contribute to an event. California needs to manage its forests better, but PG&E is also clearly at fault.

Re: This electrical transmission tower has a problem

#272

Post by andromeduck » Thu, Sep 17, 2020, 12:03 PM UTC

stefan_ wrote: post #188

kempbellt wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Of course they can. A failure is an unplanned shutdown A pedantically accurate retort, but ignores the real point. Shutting down these lines for "inspection" is not feasible. These lines are the backbone of a grid that millions of people and services rely on 24/7/365, and there is zero redundancy. They are responsible for delivering power to hospitals, traffic lights, schools, airports, grocery stores, homes, busine…

This is PG&E in California we are talking about? The one that already has rolling blackouts ? California is just a failed state - an embarrassment for an economy so large it rivals most countries.

That's what happens when there's no viable opposition party.

Re: This electrical transmission tower has a problem

#273

Post by andromeduck » Thu, Sep 17, 2020, 12:04 PM UTC

mensetmanusman wrote: post #254

bhawks wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PGE also was responsible for contaminating the ground water in Hinkley California with millions of gallons of chromium in the the 1960s and then covering it up for 20 years. There is something seriously wrong with PGE and it's attitude towards it's infrastructure and public safety.

Not sure how important it is to bring up something from 60 years ago. All the workers from that time are likely dead.

But the culture isn't.

Re: This electrical transmission tower has a problem

#274

Post by ithkuil » Thu, Sep 17, 2020, 12:05 PM UTC

mensetmanusman wrote: post #252

chmod775 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suspect that man was lying... It is very very very hard to start a fire with a hammer, even deliberately... Out of the millions of people who use a hammer to strike metal on metal every day, one of them will manage start a fire eventually. Even the unlikeliest events are actually pretty likely at scale. Sure, two thirds of them may just be lying, but unless you can prove they are (which really shouldn't be that h…

I laugh at the image of a statistical ensemble of people hammering bees with hammers, with one of them causing a fire.

I laugh at the image of a statistical ensemble of people claiming to to bees with a hammer while instead setting them on fire with gasoline, with one of them actually hammering bees with a hammer.

Re: This electrical transmission tower has a problem

#275

Post by andromeduck » Thu, Sep 17, 2020, 12:06 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #59

cco wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It feels like a great use case for a drone, you could get closer, the video can be taken by non-inspectors and then reviewed later/stored.

That's how it's done now.[1] But seeing wear on a hook is tough even with high resolution photos, because the wear is between hook and eye and doesn't show clearly until the setup is disassembled. [1] https://youtu.be/7-JTqwUyD5o

Can't you just infer it by how much of the original eye is unoccupied?

Re: This electrical transmission tower has a problem

#276

Post by daniellarusso » Thu, Sep 17, 2020, 12:13 PM UTC

mjevans wrote: post #45

throwaway189262 wrote: post #28

Interesting. I'm kinda sympathetic to PG&E on this though. These big lines don't have much under them, inspection is by helicopter, and the lines cannot be shut down. I would not be surprised if "fix it when it breaks" is a nationwide phenomenon for high tension lines. What makes it bad is how fire-prone California is. I'm of the opinion that humans should not be living in areas that burn regularly. And in PG&E's def…

There is plenty of blame to spread around. Regulations should require sufficient redundancy for scheduled outages on individual lines for regularly scheduled service during non-critical times. Communities should not be allowed to form, and should be actively wound down if they are within dangerous areas with seasonal problems. Fires, Floods, Extreme doubts, unsustainable water table use, etc. This should _begin_ at a…

What is the process for ‘winding down’ a community?

Is the local government dissolved, so the county or state pays for this?

Any info is appreciated, I am very curious of how this works in practice.

Re: This electrical transmission tower has a problem

#277

Post by maxerickson » Thu, Sep 17, 2020, 12:15 PM UTC

WJW wrote: post #223

chaz6 wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes sense, but can we do it in winter when it is less likely to start a fire?

Isn't the point that starting fires regularly keeps any particular fire small due to lack of fuel (since it has been burned in previous fires)? Seems like doing it in winter would defeat the purpose.

The committee to keep the chaos convenient and comfortable.

Re: This electrical transmission tower has a problem

#278

Post by Rapzid » Thu, Sep 17, 2020, 12:20 PM UTC

dcanelhas wrote: post #209

andi999 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there data from California about lightning as a fire cause? I read in Canada about 50% of all forest fires are started by lightning.

Lightning may coincide with rainfall, I've heard. If this is true one might presume less severe fires as a result.

The LNU and SCU lightning complex fires have burned about 750,000 acres. The August complex(also started by lighting) has already burned 796,000 acres.

Re: This electrical transmission tower has a problem

#279

Post by zaarn » Thu, Sep 17, 2020, 12:21 PM UTC

petertodd wrote: post #244

formerly_proven wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TIL. Germans of course have their Verdrillschemata to place Verdrillmasten properly, but it seems they're quite rare. There's a Wikipedia article with an example transmission line, but it notes that all Verdrillmasten have been removed from that line over time.

TIL too! The German wikipedia articles are quite detailed: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verdrillmast https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verdrillschema I'd be interested to know if the twists have been removed from the lines. It might be the case that they've replaced the special twisting masts with other ways of twisting, eg taking the lines into a substation and re-orienting them on the way back out. If they've added a…

The lines themselves basically do not have twists anymore, it only happens at the special power poles (Verdrillmasten) and only statically (so no moving parts like in PGE/CA). They're more modern and safer but more expensive when you need to change infrastructure resulting in a different load on the 3-phase, so you have to rewire those towers.

The upside is that rewiring them is somewhat safe and easy since you don't have to do it over the entire length between towers, only a few dozens meters on a single tower.

edit: quite a few places also use single-level masts, that don't have this issue at all.

Re: This electrical transmission tower has a problem

#280

Post by zhte415 » Thu, Sep 17, 2020, 12:23 PM UTC

andromeduck wrote: post #269

zhte415 wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a failing of engineering reliable systems: A part is tested to a point of failure, based on the quality parameters you specify. I'd put safety pretty high on a 115,000V line. Choose your sigma level based on your goals. I'd wager 97 years is out of the ballpark of "Yes, this might fail". And to save on cost, don't come back every year "OK, it's still OK." Replace it - it saves cost (and in this case, potentia…

iF iT AiNt BrOkE dOnT fIx It

Clearly it broke. Was fixed, sort of but not actually, and failed.

Observe, test, measure, analyse, mitigate (did I create a new acronym to add to the vast QC vocabulary, OTMAM?). Scheduled replacement! Mitigate problems before they cause knock-on effects that shutdown a production line or endanger lives and livelihoods.

(I do get the sarcasm in your reply, BTW.)