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Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

theguardian.com

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Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#101

Post by mpfundstein »

mathgladiator wrote: post #71
gdubs wrote: post #36

I was walking the trash bins down our long drive to the road yesterday in a soup of wildfire smoke and fog when it occurred to me — we sure have a compartmentalized way of looking at the issues plaguing the world right now. Part of that is the sheer complexity of our contemporary world. There are few polymaths — most are specialists. It feels like we’re sorely lacking people who see across many fields to synthesize e…

All I feel these days is despair. It's hard enough to get people to just wear masks, or not throw parties with active covid infection. I think and feel that we are doomed. I wonder if the polymaths have just given up.

in NL, we dont wear masks. and we are totally fine. ofc you dont get people to wear masks if its not necessary at all.

Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#102

Post by MiroF »

heresie-dabord wrote: post #92
MiroF wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our society is so odd. I find it astonishing that so many people can be cavalier about the deaths of millions of people when it comes to environmental destruction in a way that would be totally socially unacceptable if you were talking about targeted killings or genocide.

> in a way that would be totally socially unacceptable if you were talking about targeted killings or genocide It is neither "cavalier" nor incompassionate to refer to the age of the planet and the history of life (e.g. humans). It's a scientific fact that we haven't existed for very long in geological time and that we could become extinct by our own doing... or by a suitably large cosmic impactor (among other causes…

You're being uncharitable with your interpretation of my comment.

> Indeed. Squeamish about the truth, comfortable in delusion.

I'm taking issue with the extinction of humanity being framed as a good thing or a solution to the problem.

> we could become extinct by our own doing

Yes, and that would be horrible! That would be more horrible than any action taken by the tobacco industry, the war industry, or the inevitable drunk driving.

Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#103

Post by MiroF »

bonestamp2 wrote: post #66
MiroF wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people do not care remotely about the lives of others that they can't conceptualize. I'm increasingly worried that large segments of the population will not be reached by that message or any message that isn't about direct harm to themselves or their loved ones.

On that note, I always knew we were the problem, but this reminds me of something I heard that changed the way I thought about it... If aliens were flying past our planet and saw all of our concrete and deforestation from space, they'd assume we're an unstoppable virus that will destroy the ecosystem if a cure is not found. That perspective hit me in a way, at a scale, that I have never thought about before. We see m…

> A little further out there, but if other intelligent life exists and they saw us as a virus, they might try to cure the planet by eradicating us.

Which would be awful, as we can all agree.

Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#104

Post by mhb »

Retric wrote: post #64
mhb wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

we’re still having arguments about whether people are the cause. Of. Course. We. Are. You seem to discount the anthropocentric argument (as it should be) and then promptly jump right in to it. Why does it matter what the cause is?

It’s generally more difficult to actually fix something without knowing the cause.

It's also a good idea to understand that the search for a solution can proceed independently of knowing the cause of the problem.

Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#105

Post by hirako2000 »

vixen99 wrote: post #67
gdubs wrote: post #36

I was walking the trash bins down our long drive to the road yesterday in a soup of wildfire smoke and fog when it occurred to me — we sure have a compartmentalized way of looking at the issues plaguing the world right now. Part of that is the sheer complexity of our contemporary world. There are few polymaths — most are specialists. It feels like we’re sorely lacking people who see across many fields to synthesize e…

Is forest management, among other things, really that complicated in terms of what one has to do? The California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection (CAL FIRE), cites shrubs and live and dead vegetation as in forest fires, 'being an easily ignitable fuel source that helps spread the flames quickly over vast distances.' It's worth noting that NASA reports that global fires are down by 25% between 2003 and 2019.…

deforestation overall is not going down though. And even if deforestation caused by fire went down for the last decade it doesn't mean reforestation outpaces it.

Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#106

Post by WhompingWindows »

just_fred wrote: post #70
ohyes wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But frankly, it doesn't matter if we're the cause or not, we're the only thing around that could potentially do anything to save ourselves. So ya know, we kinda should regardless of whose fault it is.

We would have to shut down 90% of the pollutants world wide to do anything. Will make the Covid shutdowns look like a long weekend. And even then it might not make a difference if climate change is out of our control. You willing to do that?

"We would have to shut down 90% of the pollutants world wide to do anything."

This is vastly overestimated and straight up poorly informed statistics. There are dozens of solutions for pollution that involve energy efficiency, which doesn't require a single shut down and merely uses what we're already consuming more efficiently (think gasoline standards, heating, A/C, LEDs, insulation, weatherization, etc).

Alongside these simple and job-intensive efficiency gains, we can encourage the already massive growth in wind, solar, batteries, EVs, and other clean industries, which will vastly reduce the number of pollutants without shutdowns needed.

If we apply smart stimulus for Corona to encourage the many green tech jobs, we will see huge benefits on air pollution alone, never mind long-term climate impacts. Even if you think climate is a hoax, pollution certainly isn't and it's killing poor people by the hundreds of thousands every year. We have the solutions above, let's implement them, not throw up our hands in despair.

Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#107

Post by sul_tasto »

jfengel wrote: post #32
havelhovel wrote: post #20

I have been told on this forum that the men and women working in wildlife conservation are in it for vanity or for self gratification. Relatedly, I have been told on this forum that there is nothing that regular folks can do about climate change. But then events like this happen, and no one reflects on how fatally pessimistic this community can be. Are we ourselves not capable of forecasting the effect of a burning s…

The single most effective thing you can do for climate change, by far, is vote. The climate is one of those tragedy-of-the-commons problems that can only be solved when everybody consents to work on it together. It takes only a relatively small proportion to prevent any progress from being made. We certainly to have enough resources to intervene, but doing "something -- no matter how trivial" fails to minimize the de…

Voting is great, but it’s not enough to punch a ballot every few years. We need to be exerting a sustained pressure on our local and national representatives to support and pass legislation. We need to put public pressure on corporations to make changes. Look at how the BLM movement has gotten companies to commit to making changes. We need citizen leaders to provide vision and hope.

Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#108

Post by kemiller »

mpfundstein wrote: post #101
mathgladiator wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All I feel these days is despair. It's hard enough to get people to just wear masks, or not throw parties with active covid infection. I think and feel that we are doomed. I wonder if the polymaths have just given up.

in NL, we dont wear masks. and we are totally fine. ofc you dont get people to wear masks if its not necessary at all.

The point isn't masks per se. Masks do in fact slow transmission, but there are multiple strategies which can work if everyone abides by them. But that's the issue — people won't agree to even the simple rules, no matter how inoffensive, because the breakdown in social trust is so profound, and so the whole system suffers.

Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#109

Post by hashtagmarkup »

gdubs wrote: post #36

I was walking the trash bins down our long drive to the road yesterday in a soup of wildfire smoke and fog when it occurred to me — we sure have a compartmentalized way of looking at the issues plaguing the world right now. Part of that is the sheer complexity of our contemporary world. There are few polymaths — most are specialists. It feels like we’re sorely lacking people who see across many fields to synthesize e…

We're not even arguing about whether people are the cause... we're arguing about if people are allowed to call someone with a penis 'He' or not.

Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#110

Post by aaronbrethorst »

randcraw wrote: post #89
jlengrand wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most definitely agree about this. It's number 1 on my list. When I moved to the Netherlands I learnt that they actually have separate elections for the water management. Almost like a separate body of the government. I wish something like this for environment was implemented, simply because people tend to vote for things that are much closer to them, unemployment, security, ...

Given recent events, it seems clear we need to rethink the role of the executive branch, probably to strengthen gov't services (e.g. cabinet-level agencies) and make them more independent of political agendas and misdirection. A more independent EPA, NOAA, FDA, law enforcement, military, etc that are governed by strict codes of conduct and missions that proscribe their misuse by either a careless/malignant POTUS or l…

I think we need to do more than just vote.

You're absolutely right: voting is a necessary, albeit insufficient, step towards fixing many of the challenges we face.

However, the vast majority of people who happen to read my comment on here will, at best, only vote. I don't want anyone to skip out on the very important and relatively easy step they can take just because voting isn't a silver bullet.

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