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Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

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Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#191

Post by RickJWagner »

kls wrote: post #181
liability wrote: post #2

Not surprising. Years ago one of my (gray haired) mentors opened my eyes to ageism in this industry by asking me to pay attention to how many programmers in the office have gray hair. Once you start looking for it, it becomes obvious that age discrimination is rampant. Some blame the young workforce on the industry being young, but the industry is decades old at this point so I don't think that excuse holds water.

While I don't disagree with you, there are other nuanced facets to this as well. I am 45 soon to be 46, and I have watched this industry chew up and spit out many of my friends and colleagues along the way. Burnout is a real thing. I have a friend who one day said F'it and bought a worm farm, he is literally a worm farmer now. Others took the elevator to management, one became a DJ, one opened a party store etc. etc.…

I'm in my middle 50s myself, been programming for 30 years.

I like the story about the worm farming. It'd be appealing, except there's a slightly creepy feel to it when you're this close to senior citizenship. :)

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#192

Post by joe33433 »

starkred wrote: post #6

I've seen it spun as a move away from the legacy stack into the new modern architecture. Of course the legacy stack programmers have a suspicious common element. Also, of course, 2-3-5 years later the legacy stack is still what keeps the business running while all the new shiny toys have come and gone. I had a boss who came over, asked me what was working on and then looked me in the eye and said, firmly and delibera…

This is the one of the most important reason i love work from home(aka remote work). Remote work makes it a bit harder to discriminate against age

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#193

Post by freetanga »

greenyoda wrote: post #106
freetanga wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are spot on. I run a medium sized IT Team (400 employees plus 600 external contractors) and I like to go against the grain: In the past 12 months I have hired 15 people, and 13 are over 52 years old. Most have been laid off, got a juicy check that translates into a good nest egg, but not enough to make it their only source of income until retirement. A good job with a steady (but lower than before) income…

Two things surprised me here: 1. What does HR know about running an agile IT department? Why would they second-guess your decision on who to hire? 2. One of HR's biggest responsibilities is to protect the company from lawsuits. If HR itself has a bias against older employees, that would indicate that they're not even qualified to perform their own job, let alone tell the IT department how to do theirs.

Sorry for the delay. Overall you are correct on both charges, but Corporate Reality gets in the way

On (1): they don’t know squat, but if I don’t have a multi-ethnic and gender-diverse team of people in their 20s, wearing Avengers tshirts, toting moleskines and matcha cups while scooting around on mopeds, we are “not agile enough” (which is corporate for “the pics from our competitors look cooler, everyone says you can’t be agile without Avengers T-shirts, OMG hire someone youngsters or our share prices will drop”. Sorry if I overused stereotypes, but hopefully you get the point. Dilbertian PHB doing PHB things.

On (2), yes but (a) most HR everywhere are work are hypocritical at best and bipolar at worst. Also, (b) in private they will also tell you they need to keep salary volumes in check, streamline pension fund levels, etc. “Resources” is the main noun, “Human” is just an adjective that was passing by.

I don’t agree to all this, but it’s the same in all big companies I worked at (even in some that hide this crap too well)

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#194

Post by freetanga »

Aperocky wrote: post #136
freetanga wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are spot on. I run a medium sized IT Team (400 employees plus 600 external contractors) and I like to go against the grain: In the past 12 months I have hired 15 people, and 13 are over 52 years old. Most have been laid off, got a juicy check that translates into a good nest egg, but not enough to make it their only source of income until retirement. A good job with a steady (but lower than before) income…

'Medium sized' lol, I think you're being very humble.

Thanks. No matter how much you think you climb there’s always someone bigger on top, so I try to err on the side of humbleness rather than the opposite ;)

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#195

Post by freetanga »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #177
freetanga wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are spot on. I run a medium sized IT Team (400 employees plus 600 external contractors) and I like to go against the grain: In the past 12 months I have hired 15 people, and 13 are over 52 years old. Most have been laid off, got a juicy check that translates into a good nest egg, but not enough to make it their only source of income until retirement. A good job with a steady (but lower than before) income…

So other peoples biases have created an opportunity for your company. If the market undervalues someone for spurious reasons then you can exploit that. Move on to middle aged female minority programmers next.

Men, Women, Fish or anything in between. Same for skin or creed. If they can deliver, I take them as they show up (provided I have room and I can feel a good vibe with the existing team)

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#196

Post by throwaway_dcnt »

flowerlad wrote: post #21
duxup wrote: post #20

A fellow older classmate of mine and I were looking for work after changing careers. We were talking about his recent interview when he got a call from the recruiter and put her on speakerphone. She told them they were going with someone else because they thought the other person "fit the culture" better. He asked if she could give some feedback on what that meant and she flat out said "Some people thought you were t…

What would happen if you lied about your age (eliminate the first 10 years from your resume), both at the time of applying for the job and after joining the company? How much trouble can you get in for that? It doesn't seem unethical at all.

I used this trick and started getting responses and phone screens. These are companies you know and possibly respect.

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#197

Post by mikelyons »

mylons wrote: post #31
mikelyons wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The incentive structure of unregulated capitalism is "Extract maximum value with minimum expense. As much as possible externalize the costs." The things to extract value from: employees, environment, government policy, tax code, if I was smarter I'd think of a few others.

you have my name, and my views. I don't know how to feel about this. there's some solace in knowing Mike Lyons is an extraordinarily popular name though.

What's in a name?

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#198

Post by mikelyons »

SideQuark wrote: post #180
mitjak wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in the context of capitalism, sure.

In the context of humanity. People do this even in non-capitalist countries. Or do you think that when a country is not capitalist the people suddenly stop doing things to benefit themselves?

Worker's incentives seem more along the "do whatever those with resources say to trade your mind and body and time for survival"

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#199

Post by ChrisLomont »

mikelyons wrote: post #198
SideQuark wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the context of humanity. People do this even in non-capitalist countries. Or do you think that when a country is not capitalist the people suddenly stop doing things to benefit themselves?

Worker's incentives seem more along the "do whatever those with resources say to trade your mind and body and time for survival"

Companies compete for workers. Don’t like your current situation, leave. Companies know this, so cannot simply do whatever they want.

Both sides have power, and the same incentives.

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#200

Post by mikelyons »

ChrisLomont wrote: post #199
mikelyons wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worker's incentives seem more along the "do whatever those with resources say to trade your mind and body and time for survival"

Companies compete for workers. Don’t like your current situation, leave. Companies know this, so cannot simply do whatever they want. Both sides have power, and the same incentives.

I would argue that this is a perspective of someone with power in the job market, and perhaps that perspective is limited to a small portion of workers' experiences.

I also find "don't like it, leave" to be a very unaware oversimplification of the situation many American workers are in.

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