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91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

nationalgeographic.com

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Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#151

Post by thereisnospork »

ouid wrote: post #138
R0b0t1 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What externalizes? Most talk of the externalities assumes some quantity that exists somewhere, but without a good reason to believe they exist why should we? A simple example is the current cost of recycling plastic: it's too expensive so it won't happen. Consequently putting these on the sheet as an externalities doesn't make sense Forcing it to happen is probably nonsensical, why not fund research into plastic recy…

It seems you either don't know what an externality is, or you don't understand how plastic is an externality. In the second case, I literally cannot help you. Try to imagine yourself as a member of the ecosystem which is actively collapsing? The oxygen you are breathing isn't made in a lab. The creation, purchase, and disposal of plastic has consequences for people that are not involved in that chain, and therefore h…

What specifically, and how large (dollars / plastic item/unit) are these externalites? If you can't describe and quantify them then there isn't an argument for compensating (taxes, bans) against them.

[0] e.g. If I dump 100 PET soda bottles into the ocean how many humans would be inconvenienced, how many fish killed? My napkin math says essentially none of either.

Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#152

Post by replicatorblog »

lightgreen wrote: post #144
DoingIsLearning wrote: post #19

The Plastic recycling process as a whole is an incredibly succesful cost externalization for the petro-chemical and packaging industries. Governments and consumers need to get serious with these lobbies: - Ban ALL single-use plastic (except for medical supplies). - Heavily tax plastic packaging - Tax breaks for glass and paper packaging - Force plastic return deposit schemes at supermarkets _payed for by manufacturer…

> - Ban ALL single-use plastic (except for medical supplies). This is just naive and irrational. What if I really need a single use plastic thingy because for example, it is a wire buckle, and making it multi-use would make it effectively expensive single-use wire buckle? Banning ALL is rarely a good solution. Just tax it and that's it. And it doesn't matter, if it's single use or multiple use, because eventually all…

Separating worthy designs from wasteful ones is essentially impossible. I spent the first ten years of my career designing medical devices and worked with a wide range of suppliers. One of our key vendors also did a lot of work designing airtight containers for chewing tobacco.

This is true up the entire supply chain. The same machines that produce barrier plastics for first responders also produce material for plastic wrap for retail packaging.

Sure, you could hypothetically ban all the "frivolous" applications, but I don't think people fully understand how the R&D for silly things subsidizes, and cross pollinates life-saving innovations.

The real trade-off isn't plastics or landfills, it is landfills vs. modern oncology.

Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#153

Post by londons_explore »

DoingIsLearning wrote: post #19

The Plastic recycling process as a whole is an incredibly succesful cost externalization for the petro-chemical and packaging industries. Governments and consumers need to get serious with these lobbies: - Ban ALL single-use plastic (except for medical supplies). - Heavily tax plastic packaging - Tax breaks for glass and paper packaging - Force plastic return deposit schemes at supermarkets _payed for by manufacturer…

> Define industry quotas for how much 'new' plastic is allowed to be made from crude and make companies bid for it in a "new plastic" market

If you implemented this one, all of your other goals would naturally fall out of the increased cost of plastic.

Where you give the free market conditions where it ends up doing the things you were thinking of 'requiring' it to do, you'll end up with a much more effective solution, because no set of laws or requirements is ever as comprehensive as the effect of millions of people in millions of roles trying to save a few bucks...

Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#154

Post by mattbeckman »

aforwardslash wrote: post #103
mattbeckman wrote: post #43

If someone was to Elon Musk the shi* out of this problem, what would they build or do differently? My gut is that it would focus on plastic identification automation, but not positive.

They did. The plastics industry sinked millions in campaigns to convince the people plastics are reclyclable. The only thing missing from being a true Musk move is that they came up with it themselves, instead of buying off the idea from someone else.

You know that's not what I meant.

Let's chat again when you've executed and launched five unique revolutionary companies.

Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#155

Post by forgotmypw17 »

chubot wrote: post #42

I still don't get how bottled water became a thing. It wasn't a thing when I was a kid, and somehow the industry convinced us to buy huge quantities of an inferior product for more money, and it pollutes the environment to boot. Insane. The least you can do is use a refillable container. 10+ years ago Google switched from bottle water to giving everyone a container. And that was a great move. Yet people complained, a…

I am fregan for environmental reasons, among others. I get much of my food out of dumpsters. I don't buy any clothes, like, ever, only hand-me-downs. I don't ride in a car unless it's already going that way.

Several years ago, I paid a couple hundred bucks to get my municipal water (large U.S. city) tested in a lab.

After seeing the results, I almost never drink tap water, and I buy a gallon of spring water (in clear plastic) on most days for my own use.

Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#156

Post by thinkcontext »

ars wrote: post #83
hristov wrote: post #61

As I have said before the solution is compostable plastic. It solves the problem with the smallest net change in behavior of the affected parties. As we have regrettably seen with the coronavirus changing the behavior of large populations is incredibly difficult even if there are dire repercussions for failure to change. The cost of compostable plastic is slightly higher than the usual plastic, so the governments wil…

I disagree. The solution is burning plastic for energy. You get to use the oil from the ground twice: Once as plastic, and again for energy. It's a win/win since you reduce oil you burn and get rid of plastic waste.

5 times more CO2 is emitted during manufacture of conventional plastic than is in the plastic, whereas for compostable plastic its more like 2.

Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#157

Post by elliottkember »

forgotmypw17 wrote: post #155
chubot wrote: post #42

I still don't get how bottled water became a thing. It wasn't a thing when I was a kid, and somehow the industry convinced us to buy huge quantities of an inferior product for more money, and it pollutes the environment to boot. Insane. The least you can do is use a refillable container. 10+ years ago Google switched from bottle water to giving everyone a container. And that was a great move. Yet people complained, a…

I am fregan for environmental reasons, among others. I get much of my food out of dumpsters. I don't buy any clothes, like, ever, only hand-me-downs. I don't ride in a car unless it's already going that way. Several years ago, I paid a couple hundred bucks to get my municipal water (large U.S. city) tested in a lab. After seeing the results, I almost never drink tap water, and I buy a gallon of spring water (in clear…

Would you care to share what the results were?

Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#158

Post by themeiguoren »

oefnak wrote: post #120
lazyjones wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. "Single-use" plastic is often used for a long time, longer than "eco" alternatives like paper bags that simply don't do the job well enough to be reused. Glass and paper are horrible alternatives (for the environment) if not recycled properly (and they aren't, like plastic).

Glass and paper may cost more energy, but don't cause pollution. And when we have enough solar panels, energy will be free. Removing all microplastics from nature will be a lot harder.

Paper grocery bags give off gas when they rot, whereas the (smaller) amount of energy in a plastic grocery bag is carbon locked in a controlled landfill. I think there’s a strong argument for plastic bags being more environmentally friendly.

Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#159

Post by pixl97 »

thereisnospork wrote: post #151
ouid wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems you either don't know what an externality is, or you don't understand how plastic is an externality. In the second case, I literally cannot help you. Try to imagine yourself as a member of the ecosystem which is actively collapsing? The oxygen you are breathing isn't made in a lab. The creation, purchase, and disposal of plastic has consequences for people that are not involved in that chain, and therefore h…

What specifically, and how large (dollars / plastic item/unit) are these externalites? If you can't describe and quantify them then there isn't an argument for compensating (taxes, bans) against them. [0] e.g. If I dump 100 PET soda bottles into the ocean how many humans would be inconvenienced, how many fish killed? My napkin math says essentially none of either.

Hol up.

Dumping those plastics in the ocean begins a cycle of creating microplastics. These plastic particles are being incorporated in food chains and the ramifications of this are not understood at this time, and may take some time to figure out.

Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#160

Post by DoingIsLearning »

lightgreen wrote: post #144
DoingIsLearning wrote: post #19

The Plastic recycling process as a whole is an incredibly succesful cost externalization for the petro-chemical and packaging industries. Governments and consumers need to get serious with these lobbies: - Ban ALL single-use plastic (except for medical supplies). - Heavily tax plastic packaging - Tax breaks for glass and paper packaging - Force plastic return deposit schemes at supermarkets _payed for by manufacturer…

> - Ban ALL single-use plastic (except for medical supplies). This is just naive and irrational. What if I really need a single use plastic thingy because for example, it is a wire buckle, and making it multi-use would make it effectively expensive single-use wire buckle? Banning ALL is rarely a good solution. Just tax it and that's it. And it doesn't matter, if it's single use or multiple use, because eventually all…

> This is just naive and irrational.

Ignoring the unnecessary ad hominem, this is as irrational, as baning leaded fuel or asbestos. Plastic will be the defining geological remainder of our human epoch. We are physically destroying the planet and our own healthy for the sake of wire buckles. [0]

You claim this to be naive, yet this is the very proposal currently approved by 560 members of the EU parliament, in the new European Union Single-Use Plastics Directive 2019/904 [1] [2]

Arguably the original proposal was ridiculously watered down so that only a short list of single-use plastic products are banned (likely due to industry lobbying).

However, make no mistake, a ban is coming it is not a question of if but of when. The quicker the Coca-Cola's and Pepsico's and Nestlé's of the world wake up to this, the less they will hurt their bottom line with the overdue reckoning of consumer backlash and health related class suits.

[0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=Plastic+endocrine+disr...

[1] https://time.com/5560105/european-union-plastic-ban/

[2] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/LSU/?uri=uriserv:...

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