Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#31

Post by batmaniam » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 9:31 PM UTC

jentist_retol wrote: post #2

I've taken a hard line with people who work at Facebook. If you're still there and unwilling to represent the failings your company has done to society, then I need to hear a justification before moving further in the conversation. I don't think I've ever felt this strongly about a tech company. I know that's tough but it's a matter of ethics. And frankly, Facebook is an amazing technical institution, and I would lov…

This is an extremely unfair evaluation of software engineers. There's no such thing as a company doing ethical work, they all answer to shareholders and generate profit solely to benefit that class of people. Everyone else is the working class, trying to get by and without any ability to actually change the incentive structure of a company. We all work for someone who is screwing someone else, be it the consumer or your fellow coworker. It's all evil, and we are all doing the devil's work.

If you truly want fundamental ethical change, how about empowering the working class, so that we have a platform and the power to speak without reprisals? Then it goes beyond facebook, we can fight back against all types of abuses, ideological ones and the ones in the office. Can you imagine the kind of power we can have if we, in unison, shut down all our development work to fight for societal change? The government and corporations will bow.

Start a tech union, and let's see how far you get. That's a better answer than putting the onus on a single developer whose life is literally dependent on the company's continued employment.

Just don't be surprised that the company will do everything to shut you down, hard. And then you'll realize how ridiculous the evaluation you wrote above is.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#32

Post by Diederich » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 9:31 PM UTC

jentist_retol wrote: post #2

I've taken a hard line with people who work at Facebook. If you're still there and unwilling to represent the failings your company has done to society, then I need to hear a justification before moving further in the conversation. I don't think I've ever felt this strongly about a tech company. I know that's tough but it's a matter of ethics. And frankly, Facebook is an amazing technical institution, and I would lov…

A couple of honest questions coming in. I would very much like to engage in a good faith conversation with you.

> ... unwilling to represent the failings your company has done to society, then I need to hear a justification before moving further in the conversation.

I'm going to replace 'company' with 'organization'.

Do you harbor similar opinions about people who have previously or currently work for a federal government? State government?

You mention 'tech company': do you have such opinions about people who have worked for, for example, IBM?

I look forward to your response, and I promise I'm not trying to trap or bait you in any way. Thanks.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#33

Post by diegoholiveira » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 9:33 PM UTC

What would happen to Facebook if we do ban advertising from the internet?

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#34

Post by jentist_retol » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 9:33 PM UTC

captainredbeard wrote: post #4

jentist_retol wrote: post #2

I've taken a hard line with people who work at Facebook. If you're still there and unwilling to represent the failings your company has done to society, then I need to hear a justification before moving further in the conversation. I don't think I've ever felt this strongly about a tech company. I know that's tough but it's a matter of ethics. And frankly, Facebook is an amazing technical institution, and I would lov…

> I don't think I've ever felt this strongly I'm sure that your employer loves your personal feelings interfering with hiring talent.

>I'm sure that your employer loves your personal feelings interfering with hiring talent.

When I brought up my thoughts around the Uber candidate, I was supported by the people on the panel. One of them confessed that he had regretted not asking the question. It's part of the reason that I love working here.

If a team here built something like "god-mode" and it made the news for those levels of abuse... well, it would very possibly tank the company. It definitely hurt Uber. So it's not just personal, it's business!

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#35

Post by DSingularity » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 9:33 PM UTC

dlss wrote: post #9

captainredbeard wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think I've ever felt this strongly I'm sure that your employer loves your personal feelings interfering with hiring talent.

There's a great Warren Buffett quote on this: "Somebody once said that in looking for people to hire, you look for three qualities: integrity, intelligence, and energy. And if you don't have the first, the other two will kill you. You think about it; it's true. If you hire somebody without integrity, you really want them to be dumb and lazy."

Great quote. But I wonder if things are so dark at some of these companies that, for some positions, they actually need to find people who lack integrity.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#36

Post by alexbanks » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 9:35 PM UTC

li4ick wrote: post #19

jentist_retol wrote: post #2

I've taken a hard line with people who work at Facebook. If you're still there and unwilling to represent the failings your company has done to society, then I need to hear a justification before moving further in the conversation. I don't think I've ever felt this strongly about a tech company. I know that's tough but it's a matter of ethics. And frankly, Facebook is an amazing technical institution, and I would lov…

I mean, I believe that there should be a Hippocratic Oath in software, but I'm not sure where your particular cutoff bar stands. My view of software is against the mainstream: most programmers should dedicate their time to build tools for scientists, to solve actual problems and advance our species. Current tech is mostly trash, useless and nobody needs it.

It's difficult to know what/where the line is for sure, but I think lots of software has shifted away from making people's lives better. Facebook, Amazon, Uber, are doing more negative for humanity than positive I think. Sure, they offer a service that might not've existed before, at least in that iteration or scale, but at what point are the negatives outweighing the positives?

Sure, you "connect" people to friends/family they may not be able to see in person or communicate with regularly. You're also verifiably playing god with information and misinformation, as well as spying on your users, selling their data to other people that want to spy on them, paying employees to view toxic content (which results in PTSD), etc. Is all this worth being able to communicate with people you don't really care about, or that don't really care about you?

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#37

Post by jentist_retol » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 9:36 PM UTC

Dystopian wrote: post #14

gabereiser wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly why we have interview problems in engineering. I respect engineers for having opinions and ethics and they should lean on them, but to bar one from employment because they were doing their job is wrong, immoral, and potentially illegal.

Not to defend the op, since I think they're taking a particularly hard line, but qualifying candidates based on their previous work is just something that happens. I've personally been disqualified because I've worked at a legal, but "vice" based company - I've seen others not hired because their previous company was too "legacy", even though they did very similar work. It's not necessarily right, but companies use t…

I'd like to emphasize the nature of the answer which was a defensive "I was just following orders".

At that point, I was conducting dozens of interviews a year, and I think that sort of question came up... maybe three times? One of those people was from a medical company with a very large and very embarrassing contemporary incident, and the interviewee and I talked about development process problems. In fact, they admitted, it was part of the reason they left! We hired them and I enjoyed working with him.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#38

Post by errantspark » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 9:37 PM UTC

jentist_retol wrote: post #2

I've taken a hard line with people who work at Facebook. If you're still there and unwilling to represent the failings your company has done to society, then I need to hear a justification before moving further in the conversation. I don't think I've ever felt this strongly about a tech company. I know that's tough but it's a matter of ethics. And frankly, Facebook is an amazing technical institution, and I would lov…

Nice to see some personal responsibility! :) I feel like one really needs to take a deontological view on things like this. Much like voting, every person who quits their job, refuses to hire an applicant or build a feature on ethical grounds moves society a step in the right direction. Don't forget about your personal agency, if you work in SV you probably have TONS AND TONS of it.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#39

Post by _t0du » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 9:38 PM UTC

gabereiser wrote: post #6

captainredbeard wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think I've ever felt this strongly I'm sure that your employer loves your personal feelings interfering with hiring talent.

Exactly why we have interview problems in engineering. I respect engineers for having opinions and ethics and they should lean on them, but to bar one from employment because they were doing their job is wrong, immoral, and potentially illegal.

What if the job they were "just" doing exists in a legal grey area? Or, more realistically, is flatout illegal?

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#40

Post by ksenzee » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 9:39 PM UTC

jentist_retol wrote: post #2

I've taken a hard line with people who work at Facebook. If you're still there and unwilling to represent the failings your company has done to society, then I need to hear a justification before moving further in the conversation. I don't think I've ever felt this strongly about a tech company. I know that's tough but it's a matter of ethics. And frankly, Facebook is an amazing technical institution, and I would lov…

This is absolutely fair. When I ask people coming from Amazon why they left, I am very carefully listening to whether they like how Amazon treats its people or not. If I were interviewing an ex-Facebook employee, I'd want to hear some discomfort with Facebook's ethics.