Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#21

Post by alexbanks » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 9:27 PM UTC

just-juan-post wrote: post #3

jentist_retol wrote: post #2

I've taken a hard line with people who work at Facebook. If you're still there and unwilling to represent the failings your company has done to society, then I need to hear a justification before moving further in the conversation. I don't think I've ever felt this strongly about a tech company. I know that's tough but it's a matter of ethics. And frankly, Facebook is an amazing technical institution, and I would lov…

Which company do you work for again?

Probably a company with an above-average amount of moral character amongst its development staff.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#22

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 9:27 PM UTC

gabereiser wrote: post #6

captainredbeard wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think I've ever felt this strongly I'm sure that your employer loves your personal feelings interfering with hiring talent.

Exactly why we have interview problems in engineering. I respect engineers for having opinions and ethics and they should lean on them, but to bar one from employment because they were doing their job is wrong, immoral, and potentially illegal.

[deleted]

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#23

Post by jentist_retol » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 9:28 PM UTC

li4ick wrote: post #19

jentist_retol wrote: post #2

I've taken a hard line with people who work at Facebook. If you're still there and unwilling to represent the failings your company has done to society, then I need to hear a justification before moving further in the conversation. I don't think I've ever felt this strongly about a tech company. I know that's tough but it's a matter of ethics. And frankly, Facebook is an amazing technical institution, and I would lov…

I mean, I believe that there should be a Hippocratic Oath in software, but I'm not sure where your particular cutoff bar stands. My view of software is against the mainstream: most programmers should dedicate their time to build tools for scientists, to solve actual problems and advance our species. Current tech is mostly trash, useless and nobody needs it.

>I'm not sure where your particular cutoff bar stands

I'm not sure either! I'm not an ethics expert. I think the Uber example and the Facebook example are real outliers. They're particularly egregious examples of abuse of people's information (letting people zoom in on people's walks of shame at company parties is definitely bad!).

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#24

Post by learnstats2 » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 9:29 PM UTC

gabereiser wrote: post #6

captainredbeard wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think I've ever felt this strongly I'm sure that your employer loves your personal feelings interfering with hiring talent.

Exactly why we have interview problems in engineering. I respect engineers for having opinions and ethics and they should lean on them, but to bar one from employment because they were doing their job is wrong, immoral, and potentially illegal.

How would it be illegal?

Doctors are often required to attest their ethics before doing a job.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#25

Post by pathseeker » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 9:29 PM UTC

rStar wrote: post #11

when I went to university in 1999 it was my dream to work at a company like microsoft, then google. then i realized that big tech is just a way for those in control of society to control us more efficiently. i feel for those who just want to put their head down and do the work. nobody thought they were going to CS school to enable the exploitation of less lucky others. but now we have facebook, amazon, palantir, goog…

Isn't this looking at the past with rose colored glasses though?

Time before using computers for business was terrible with much less transparency (no Googling prices, etc). Paperwork got lost all of the time. Companies could easily bury things, etc.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#26

Post by newcomputer » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 9:29 PM UTC

jentist_retol wrote: post #2

I've taken a hard line with people who work at Facebook. If you're still there and unwilling to represent the failings your company has done to society, then I need to hear a justification before moving further in the conversation. I don't think I've ever felt this strongly about a tech company. I know that's tough but it's a matter of ethics. And frankly, Facebook is an amazing technical institution, and I would lov…

You sound like an absolutely awful person to work with.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#27

Post by alexbanks » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 9:29 PM UTC

jentist_retol wrote: post #2

I've taken a hard line with people who work at Facebook. If you're still there and unwilling to represent the failings your company has done to society, then I need to hear a justification before moving further in the conversation. I don't think I've ever felt this strongly about a tech company. I know that's tough but it's a matter of ethics. And frankly, Facebook is an amazing technical institution, and I would lov…

I feel this way about lots more than Facebook. BigTech is committing atrocities every day, and the developers that work there are generally complicit in that behavior. I think it's fine to say "I'm not proud but the money was life changing" - that can be true, when most people are faced with that proposition would go with the life changing money. But it seems wild to think that Amazon or Facebook or Google employees should be applauded for their work, or should feel proud - lots of it is actively harmful to me as a human.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#28

Post by vowelless » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 9:30 PM UTC

jentist_retol wrote: post #2

I've taken a hard line with people who work at Facebook. If you're still there and unwilling to represent the failings your company has done to society, then I need to hear a justification before moving further in the conversation. I don't think I've ever felt this strongly about a tech company. I know that's tough but it's a matter of ethics. And frankly, Facebook is an amazing technical institution, and I would lov…

https://www.levels.fyi/

They will be fine.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#29

Post by input_sh » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 9:30 PM UTC

rStar wrote: post #11

when I went to university in 1999 it was my dream to work at a company like microsoft, then google. then i realized that big tech is just a way for those in control of society to control us more efficiently. i feel for those who just want to put their head down and do the work. nobody thought they were going to CS school to enable the exploitation of less lucky others. but now we have facebook, amazon, palantir, goog…

I'm still pretty young in my career, but I feel like I've figured out my own route around the problem. 3/4 organisations I've worked for have been NGOs, and I felt like I was doing meaningful work in all of them.

The one that wasn't an NGO has been by far the worst one. Worse salary, worse perks, worse problems I've solved, and while I didn't do any work I considered to be unethical, I'd definitely refuse some of the work my colleagues did.

I kinda wish more techies would look at the NGOs as a viable alternative to the corporate world and do some work that's actually meaningful to the society. Granted, the supply of jobs in the tech field isn't big enough for everyone to switch, but the jobs are there if you're willing to search for them.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#30

Post by jentist_retol » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 9:30 PM UTC

rajup wrote: post #5

just-juan-post wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which company do you work for again?

I'm interested to know too so I can avoid it like the plague.

We handle large amounts of sensitive personal information, and developers are tightly integrated into the product development process. We have successfully lobbied against products with serious spousal abuse cases.

If you can't handle a 5-10 minute question section in which I bring up contemporary criticism about your current employer, in the context of that sensitive information that we handle, then the feeling is mutual.