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91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

nationalgeographic.com

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Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#101

Post by crazygringo »

chubot wrote: post #42

I still don't get how bottled water became a thing. It wasn't a thing when I was a kid, and somehow the industry convinced us to buy huge quantities of an inferior product for more money, and it pollutes the environment to boot. Insane. The least you can do is use a refillable container. 10+ years ago Google switched from bottle water to giving everyone a container. And that was a great move. Yet people complained, a…

It's really very simple to understand, even if you think it's wrong.

Soda, juice, etc. were sold in bottles which normalized it.

Then people wanted to be healthier and so putting water in a bottle at events/meetings felt like providing a healthy choice to people, directly next to the unhealthy choices. Plus the water in small bottles could be kept cold in ice more easily. Also sparkling water already needed to be in bottles, so it seems even more natural to have still water next to it in the same way too.

People in some parts of the country also realized the bottled water tasted better than their local highly chlorinated tap water. (Other parts of the country there's no difference.)

The industry didn't even have to convince anyone. It's genuinely consumer-led.

And refillable containers have their own disadvantages. It's not always easy to lug one around the office as you juggle your laptop and documents and phone, or you forget it in another conference room, etc. It's easy to keep in a backpack, but people aren't usually lugging their backpack to every meeting or to the cafeteria.

I'm not defending single-use water bottles... but sometimes I do wonder if all the materials+energy spent on refillable bottles has actually turned into a huge net loss, as so many of them go unused, lost or thrown out long before they'd achieve a net positive.

Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#102

Post by lazyjones »

DoingIsLearning wrote: post #19

The Plastic recycling process as a whole is an incredibly succesful cost externalization for the petro-chemical and packaging industries. Governments and consumers need to get serious with these lobbies: - Ban ALL single-use plastic (except for medical supplies). - Heavily tax plastic packaging - Tax breaks for glass and paper packaging - Force plastic return deposit schemes at supermarkets _payed for by manufacturer…

No.

"Single-use" plastic is often used for a long time, longer than "eco" alternatives like paper bags that simply don't do the job well enough to be reused.

Glass and paper are horrible alternatives (for the environment) if not recycled properly (and they aren't, like plastic).

Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#103

Post by aforwardslash »

mattbeckman wrote: post #43

If someone was to Elon Musk the shi* out of this problem, what would they build or do differently? My gut is that it would focus on plastic identification automation, but not positive.

They did. The plastics industry sinked millions in campaigns to convince the people plastics are reclyclable. The only thing missing from being a true Musk move is that they came up with it themselves, instead of buying off the idea from someone else.

Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#104

Post by jariel »

josho wrote: post #72
jariel wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"They lied about the recycling potential to encourage widespread adoption of plastics." ? Plastics are an absolutely incredible technology, to the point of revolutionary. They are used absolutely everywhere, in everything. Nobody needed to be convinced of the utility of plastics, it's one of the most utilitarian things ever created.

So, they lied when they didn't even need to. Doesn't that make the lie that much worse?

They marketed their industry, just as every industry does.

Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#105

Post by andrepd »

jariel wrote: post #68
DoingIsLearning wrote: post #19

The Plastic recycling process as a whole is an incredibly succesful cost externalization for the petro-chemical and packaging industries. Governments and consumers need to get serious with these lobbies: - Ban ALL single-use plastic (except for medical supplies). - Heavily tax plastic packaging - Tax breaks for glass and paper packaging - Force plastic return deposit schemes at supermarkets _payed for by manufacturer…

What happens if glass packaged goods are much more expensive to ship and prone to breakage thereby creating considerably CO2 exposure? There are a zillion unforeseen externalizations in the mandates your listing - this is why centralization usually doesn't work very well. Plastic is one of many materials that go in landfills, and we don't turn it into Co2 either so I'm not sure how we can go after that 'evil industry…

Yes because decentralisation is working wonders here... Leave each self-interested agent to profit off externalities which they don't have to pay. We will have good quarterly reports for our shareholders all the way to extinction.

Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#106

Post by dahart »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #78
dahart wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, this is a good point, plastic recycling isn't working well at all, and this article demonstrates what you're saying. I would say that paper recycling has been working, it's plastic recycling that isn't currently working. I would also say that it's not that plastic recycling can't work, it's just that it hasn't been working. I am curious why it's not working. Would mandatory recycling help? Is it the recycling s…

>I am curious why it's not working Problem number one is expecting people to put forth the time and effort into sorting all of their recyclables. The whole situation is so complicated and rules so difficult to enforce, I don't see how it can be considered a feasible solution. The vastly easier, far more high impact solution is to reduce consumption.

Is sorting really the biggest problem? Are there studies that back this up? (Asking honestly; I'd love to read them if they exist). Some countries not named the United States are pretty good counter-examples, where the public is generally very good about sorting.

I've personally watched people ignore recycling signs on purpose, or get flustered by multiple bins because they've never seen more than one, but ultimately I just don't buy the argument that this takes extra time or effort, I'm convinced that is a mental block or resistance to change and not a real physical problem. It's like saying I can't be bothered to figure out where my dirty dishes go, and I can't understand the difference between the trash bin and dishwasher and cupboards, so I'm going to throw everything away. My neighbors are perfectly fine with putting yard waste in a separate bin, zero people screw that up.

If sorting is the biggest impediment to recycling, then I think that we have hope of fixing recycling and maybe reducing consumption at the same time. Sorting is the easiest problem to fix of all. It'll be easier to get people to understand sorting than it will be to get people to understand that municipal water is cleaner, cheaper and easier than their favorite bottled water brand.

I'm with you about reducing consumption being the best option. I'm not sure about easy, but no question it'll be the highest impact.

Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#107

Post by jolux »

jariel wrote: post #104
josho wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, they lied when they didn't even need to. Doesn't that make the lie that much worse?

They marketed their industry, just as every industry does.

They promoted something they understood to be a fiction because they knew it would offset reasonable concerns about their product. If you think that’s the core of marketing then we have very different ideas about what good marketing is.

Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#108

Post by jolux »

gruez wrote: post #88
josho wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The industry and their advocacy groups reduced their costs by switching to packaging, proceeded to lie to consumers and government that all this new packaging was going to be easily recycled and not to worry. I don't see where consumers are on the hook? We were told that plastic was better (e.g. the switch from paper bags to plastic). As a comparison to electronics industry in many jurisdictions there are recycling f…

>I don't see where consumers are on the hook? We were told that plastic was better (e.g. the switch from paper bags to plastic). No, that's just fraud. Externality has a very specific meaning: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality . In this case a third party isn't bearing the cost. It's still the consumer (via taxes or garbage disposal fees). >As a comparison to electronics industry in many jurisdictions there a…

The fraud was in denying the externality, which is on the environment in the form of massive amounts of material that can’t be recycled and which do not biodegrade.

Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#109

Post by dgellow »

Germany has some recycling plants with modern sorting machines, almost entirely automated, it’s quite impressive to see it working.

https://youtu.be/I_fUpP-hq3A

I was checking for details a few days ago, they announce on their website 53% of their input recycled, and 47% used for “energy recovery” (which is newspeak to say they burn it for the cement and steel industry).

I was surprised by the fact that they burn so much but 47% is apparently considered very good.

Re: 91% of plastic isn't recycled (2018)

#110

Post by coliveira »

TylerE wrote: post #45
DoingIsLearning wrote: post #19

The Plastic recycling process as a whole is an incredibly succesful cost externalization for the petro-chemical and packaging industries. Governments and consumers need to get serious with these lobbies: - Ban ALL single-use plastic (except for medical supplies). - Heavily tax plastic packaging - Tax breaks for glass and paper packaging - Force plastic return deposit schemes at supermarkets _payed for by manufacturer…

You're just assuming that glass is better than plastic. I challenge that assumption. Glass is much heavier and bulkier (so a truck will carry less product, and burn more fuel and cause more road wear to do so), and more product will be lost to spoilage.

This is good, because transportation costs can be easily accounted in the final price of the product. Paying higher costs make people more honest about how much they want to spend for the privilege of buying small bottles of a product.
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