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Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

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Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#171

Post by gnu8 »

LanceH wrote: post #121
in_cahoots wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if there’s a legal case here? A lot of companies only hire entry-level from new college grads (or even worse, returning interns). How is that not age discrimination?

There is no age requirement on being a recent college grad. They tend to be clustered tightly in a certain age range, but a 45 year old graduating would still have access to that same recruiting pipeline. Non diverse results doesn't imply illegal discrimination.

> a 45 year old graduating would still have access to that same recruiting pipeline.

Do we really believe this?

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#172

Post by throwaway189262 »

Grimm1 wrote: post #160
throwaway189262 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have more than half a decade of experience and professionally have a senior title. If you want to play that game most older programmers absolutely do not keep up with me You sound fun to work with. I agree with you that some old programmers just want to get paid. As I've gotten older I appreciate the reasons more. It still bothers me sometimes but whatever. Work is far from the most important thing in my life the…

Sorry, I just get frustrated being told every 25 year old is a no experience green hack. I've worked with plenty of older devs who are absolutely a treasure to this industry.

I'm quite a bit older and some programmers with fancier titles are still asses. I know a guy that honestly sucks and knows it (he's lazy and just wants $$$). He's got "Sr Staff" from demanding a title bump every time he hops jobs. At most companies titles are meaningless, pay is all that matters.

Programmers are all over the place skills wise. The only time I had a team where everybody was competent was when me and a couple good guys got to interview everyone. Just the way it is

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#173

Post by in_cahoots »

LanceH wrote: post #121
in_cahoots wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if there’s a legal case here? A lot of companies only hire entry-level from new college grads (or even worse, returning interns). How is that not age discrimination?

There is no age requirement on being a recent college grad. They tend to be clustered tightly in a certain age range, but a 45 year old graduating would still have access to that same recruiting pipeline. Non diverse results doesn't imply illegal discrimination.

Let’s say I only want to hire software developers with buzz cuts. Women are free to cut their hair short and apply. Is this not gender discrimination?

In fact, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission seems to agree with me that this is risky:

“For example, a help-wanted ad that seeks "females" or "recent college graduates" may discourage men and people over 40 from applying and may violate the law”

https://www.eeoc.gov/prohibited-employment-policiespractices

Digging deeper, it looks like Facebook settled a 2008 case where they stated a preference for 2007 and 2008 graduates by saying they would no longer state the exact years they were looking for. At this point I’m willing to bet that hiring only new grads or returning interns is age discrimination but nobody’s brought the case to court.

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#174

Post by unishark »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #149
Grimm1 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah this entire statement was also incredibly ageist and painting with broad strokes. If your litmus test for good programmer is "number of languages known" you aren't a good programmer. I'm 25, I've been programming for 15 years now and professionally I have more than half a decade of experience and professionally have a senior title. If you want to play that game most older programmers absolutely do not keep up wi…

I'm 25 and have a senior title Is this grade inflation? In the physical sciences you get a doctorate in your late 20s, and you still are a greenhorn. Is computing really that shallow?

Definitely in some companies, "senior" is just the very first promotion, coming with 3-4 years experience or a MS. Next comes prefixes like "principal and "senior principal".

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#175

Post by [deleted] »

No1 wrote: post #107

The penalty for IBM: "the Commission now invites Respondent to join with it in an effort toward a just resolution of this matter" and "If you decline to enter into conciliation discussions, or when the Commission’s representative is unable to secure an acceptable conciliation agreement, the Director shall so inform the parties,advising them of the court enforcement alternatives available to aggrieved persons and the…

[deleted]

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#176

Post by Frondo »

Grimm1 wrote: post #160
throwaway189262 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have more than half a decade of experience and professionally have a senior title. If you want to play that game most older programmers absolutely do not keep up with me You sound fun to work with. I agree with you that some old programmers just want to get paid. As I've gotten older I appreciate the reasons more. It still bothers me sometimes but whatever. Work is far from the most important thing in my life the…

Sorry, I just get frustrated being told every 25 year old is a no experience green hack. I've worked with plenty of older devs who are absolutely a treasure to this industry.

I felt this way when I was 25, like I'd been programming since I was 7 and I was hot shit.

I'm approaching 40 now and only in the last year or two does it occur to me that, even at 25, I was really only middle-grade.

I wonder what you'll think if you look back in 15 years, about your skills now.

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#177

Post by tonyedgecombe »

freetanga wrote: post #66
socrates1998 wrote: post #17

The big tech giants have used this marketing ploy that "older workers don't understand new tech" to undercut them at almost every opportunity. I honestly have no idea why they are allowed to get away with this in the media and public opinion. Maybe because older people don't know new tech, so they think older programmers don't know it either? It's insane to me that an older programmer with decades of experience and m…

I think you are spot on. I run a medium sized IT Team (400 employees plus 600 external contractors) and I like to go against the grain: In the past 12 months I have hired 15 people, and 13 are over 52 years old. Most have been laid off, got a juicy check that translates into a good nest egg, but not enough to make it their only source of income until retirement. A good job with a steady (but lower than before) income…

So other peoples biases have created an opportunity for your company. If the market undervalues someone for spurious reasons then you can exploit that. Move on to middle aged female minority programmers next.

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#178

Post by occamrazor »

LanceH wrote: post #121
in_cahoots wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if there’s a legal case here? A lot of companies only hire entry-level from new college grads (or even worse, returning interns). How is that not age discrimination?

There is no age requirement on being a recent college grad. They tend to be clustered tightly in a certain age range, but a 45 year old graduating would still have access to that same recruiting pipeline. Non diverse results doesn't imply illegal discrimination.

There is the”disproportionate impact” argument. It is if course harder to prove, though.

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#179

Post by dkdk8283 »

vkou wrote: post #140
ghaff wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bit weird may be ~= failing HR filters. I don't really have a strong opinion though. When I last switched jobs a number of years back a friend of mine strongly advocated for obfuscating age as much as possible. I don't even remember how much I did but it didn't really matter because I knew the person running things and a number of the other people involved in the process. So this wasn't really an HR filtering thing…

I don't work in HR, but I have a hard time imagining that any HR department has a bullet-point checklist they expect from resumes, that includes 'MUST SPECIFY EDUCATION DATES '. ('MUST SPECIFY EDUCATION' is certainly on there.) [1] And unless these things are explicitly checked for, your resume won't look that weird. [1] If they do, they should stop, because this sort of thing is great evidence for an age discriminat…

I don’t specify education because I never even completed high school. I get significantly less recruiter spam vs friends with an education section on their linkedin.

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#180

Post by SideQuark »

mitjak wrote: post #91
ChrisLomont wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Extract maximum value with minimum expense. As much as possible externalize the costs" is also the incentive structure of workers.

in the context of capitalism, sure.

In the context of humanity. People do this even in non-capitalist countries. Or do you think that when a country is not capitalist the people suddenly stop doing things to benefit themselves?
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