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Ask HN: What do you think about “The Social Dilemma”?

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221–230 of 266 posts

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about “The Social Dilemma”?

#221

I wish they had presented more solutions. The way I see it, infinite scroll feeds generated by algorithms should be outlawed. Same with Like counts. (It seems Instagram has begun testing this https://techcrunch.com/2019/11/14/instagram-private-like-cou... ) Facebook wasn't that bad when you had to visit each person's wall or when the feed was in chronological order.

I am thinking a lot about this problem space and trying to integrate some of my ideas into my project (https://www.confidist.com). I am also interested in solutions and alternatives.

Centralization of power

I think this is the difference between these social media platforms being a good source to share information with friends and family and major social media platforms dictating culture through self-interests. Taxing data collection and storage is a good idea presented by the film. I believe social media companies should stay smaller in size and scope. These companies should make guarantees and hold each other accountable through regulation and organizations about data usage and adopting direct to user business models.

The attention economy

Again I think some regulation here is needed. In addition to looking closely at infinite scroll feeds, and the information associated with status that is displayed publicly, we also need to look very closely at the nature of notification management and data ownership. Taking email as an example, we must have an accessible way to unsubscribe from all. In parallel, all platforms should be required to have an accessible and straightforward unsubscribe from all notifications toggle. The obvious attention loophole of just creating new notification categories to continuously alert users needs to be closed. And lastly about data ownership; All social platforms that collect data, not only need to be accountable for the money trail your data takes, but should also allow users to export their data in a usable format. That means I should be able to export all my friends and connections from Facebook and delete my account. This would prevent that psychological gotcha that plays on the fear of losing what you have built on a given platform. It is also anti-competitive to other social platforms if data is not easily exportable. All of these companies know this and make it very difficult.

Intermittent Variable Rewards

You hit on this with the infinite scroll, but we can likely do more. We need to help people be patient again. Guess what? Notifications can help manage our time and attention instead of hurtful if used narrowly and as a service to the user. For example, if I make this post on hacker news and I have notifications disabled, I'll probably keep checking back to see if any updates occur. That involves the intermittent variable reward. However, if I know very clearly that I'll receive a notification when an update occurs, I can exactly respond when I need to. Companies like Apple and Google who manage device notifications should be responsible for their intermittent variability as well. We should require the ability to have "notification digests" instead of immediate notifications. We know they can cause traffic accidents, but they also waste a lot of time and are rarely all that important.

Echo Chambers

You spoke of the like counter. We all know status is a huge part of social and it is especially important to young people. Viewpoint diversity and acceptance play off of status as well. So how do we help remove the perception of our social media status? In the film, they spoke of narrowing in on certain ages before social media is allowed under the law. I think that is a good first step before we fully understand how to make improvements through the user experience. I am requiring 18 and over.

What I am doing with my platform is to privatize as much interaction as I can, with the balance of moderation and a rating system that is not displayed back. Sometimes good old fashion one-on-one communication is the way to go. If that can be used more in a distributed way to substitute for one-to-many interactions I think that goes a long way towards the social pressure of the group.

I think special attention also needs to be made towards each type of media. Pictures, videos, text, virtual reality, augmented reality, and more. I isolate interactions to text only similar to here on HN. This removes social pressures and "shiny objects" from easily manipulating our attention. It prevents every context with another person from being about appearance and prejudices. But it also allows users to fill in the unknowns with blanket assumptions. If you are just a username and well maybe you said something I don't agree with, maybe you are everything I dislike in the world wrapped into one anonymous internet persona? To try and bring a little more empathy into the picture I am trying out showing various attributes users have in common when they interact as part of an introduction. In a virtual reality social situation we could show emotions from users in a more effective way without revealing their identity which is pretty neat. Pictures, especially of users, can allow targeted objectification, and the hyper and unrealistic comparison with our peers that is most likely with younger women. We should have regulations around pictures and videos that require a visible indication that a filter was used. I think allowing young people to share pictures and videos of themselves will become less of a problem the more decentralized social media becomes. We need to change the interaction of, "wow did you see the of x on y?", to "Hey I posted x on y, the niche platform I use, check it out". Sharing pictures and videos need to be more of a niche hobby, and less the thing people need to do to be relevant.

Echo chambers I think also directly relates to growth and growth hacks. People interact more and enjoy interactions more when they are validated. 8 friends within 11 days. This gets users focused on that status number of # of friends. Or maybe # of connections which exploded LinkedIn. Guess who people mostly know and that can help grow the platform? Oh, people that are very similar to each other and that generally like each other. This is great for a niche platform where we stay connected with close friends and family, but it is a disaster for a platform that aims to connect everyone and is also a way to share news, opinions, etc etc. So again, the scale and scope matters. What about platforms that aim to form communities or groups based on a common interest or identity? People love forming their echo chambers and I don't think there is anything we can do about that human desire. What we can do as system engineers use our algorithms to promote diversity of thought and perspective within groups and among groups.

On my platform Confidist, I am working on a design for a connection system called "Orbits". Instead of encouraging connections with just about anyone you encounter, I want to leverage the data that users have volunteered, to similar to a dating platform, promote diversity and health of your Orbit. This might equate to having multiple strong foundational connections such as being introverted from a rural community and prioritizing other attributes that you have not yet been exposed to such as someone who is socially liberal. Additionally, I created a spotlight event system that is tied to experience-based rewards. As the system designer, I can cross-promote these events from one community to another. The site can also encourage a spirit or culture of openness.

I did not touch on solutions and alternatives to the advertisement model, however, I think plenty of people are experimenting. I am interested in hearing what others think are the most successful alternatives. But to me, the key is staying relatively small in size and scope, prioritize the user directly with your business model, and be very conscious about how you grow and regulate your system. Don't make something you don't want your kid to use.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about “The Social Dilemma”?

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These apps are absolutely addictive because they were explicitly and intentionally designed to be. Same goes with fast food, TV shows etc. It's your responsibility to not over-consume anything; and if you have children, teach them to not do that as well. The problem is not with FB, Google etc. The problem (which is over-consumption of everything) is cultural. Blaming some specific corporations is easy but it won't…

Good old personal responsibility. It's your responsibility not to walk into traps laid out to catch you. Why stop people from laying out the traps? They're just trying to make a living, it's perfectly fine!

Absolutely. Let's lay out traps for the trap layers then, and find a way to do it for a living. You're saying that's fine, so lets do it.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about “The Social Dilemma”?

#223
post #28

I think what I think about docudramas in general: Hyperbolic. I think the harms of social media are exaggerated, and not entirely unique to social media. I don’t have a problem with Facebook knowing what content I interact with and using that to serve me ads, or content that I want to spend time consuming. I don’t agree with the characterization of publishing or volunteering information (likes, posting photos, profil…

You are vastly understating the volume and type of data that Facebook is gathering. You casually mention photos but there is a mountain of information in each and every photo. People upload tens of thousands of photos.

You also just hand wave away the real psychological manipulation that is available when bad actors have enough information on you. “I won’t be convinced the moon landing was fake.” Sure, that’s likely true, but you aren’t special or immune from manipulation. With enough data ANYONE can be surgically targeted and manipulated.

And the worst part of all of it is that you can’t opt out. You can upload a photo that I am in. Facebook can scan and get a ton of demographic information about me. Then they can continue to trace and build out my “invisible” profile, all without me needing an account.

It’s absurd.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about “The Social Dilemma”?

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you propose to solve this problem besides teaching others to take personal responsibility?

Not the original poster - just replying with some ideas... I would purpose that Google in particular be broken into many different companies. The fact that they own such a large part of mobile, browser, search, video, email, news aggregation, online office products is hugely problematic. I believe one of the issues that was not highlighted is the overall reach of these companies, they focus in on the mobile aspect, b…

Time and time again I see it suggested that these "lets be evil" giant companies like Google be split up. I'm coming around to this. They aren't able to be accountable because they are far too giant (not necessarily in the head-count sense) to be influenced by human conscience. They take on a life of their own, unconstrained by their externalities, adapting like DNA, optimizing for their survival at any cost. Force these tech giants to split up, because we agree as a society that they are evil (or at least problematic). The individual people that make up the mini-corps will then have more influence to steer these mini-hydras. What about shareholders?

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about “The Social Dilemma”?

#225
post #28

I think what I think about docudramas in general: Hyperbolic. I think the harms of social media are exaggerated, and not entirely unique to social media. I don’t have a problem with Facebook knowing what content I interact with and using that to serve me ads, or content that I want to spend time consuming. I don’t agree with the characterization of publishing or volunteering information (likes, posting photos, profil…

Even I feel the narrative is played quite disproportionately (democracies are falling, dystopian world).

Doesn't any engaging TV show (Game of Thrones) does something similar, keep you engaged by twist and turns, experimenting/testing with new characters? A/B testing on users is perceived as experiments on lab rats in the docudrama.

And why is the ad-based business model a bad thing? If the platform target specific customers without any misleading information, it can really help both the customers and the advertisers. Seems like a win-win.

I feel absolutely necessary for these platforms to understand us better, by capturing various data points and then manipulate/filter our feeds. There is so much content published every second, a genuine AI can really come handy. If I feel that my feed is getting polarised and I am in an echo chamber, I can consciously subscribe to alternate and diverse opinions and people. In reality, "You are average of the 5 people you surround yourself with"

On a side note, Netflix itself is a competitor to Facebook (content), Google (Youtube) and also engineering resources. Netflix is too "competing for user's attention" with these tech giants. Netflix too in a way was getting you hooked to the documentary by playing around with tempo and music frequency, that triggers some engaging chemical reaction.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about “The Social Dilemma”?

#226
post #28

I think what I think about docudramas in general: Hyperbolic. I think the harms of social media are exaggerated, and not entirely unique to social media. I don’t have a problem with Facebook knowing what content I interact with and using that to serve me ads, or content that I want to spend time consuming. I don’t agree with the characterization of publishing or volunteering information (likes, posting photos, profil…

I'm not super bothered much by it either. However, there is data to show, through Facebook's own research, that is possible to manipulate people's sense of well being and their perspective by what is being shown to them. For example, Facebook could show a person only posts from their friends expressing negative sentiment and put you in a bad mood. Although these algorithms are quite sophisticated, there is no univers…

> Should the algorithm only show you left-leaning political posts because that's what you like, or should it optimize for you engaging with a broader variety of content but maybe increase your dissatisfaction.

They should give that control to the user. Users should have the ability to select how much diversity they want and then provide feedback later to the content for the AIs to iteratively understand better, just like in Google news, Youtube. In addition to that, a report analysing the user's engagement with content and topics, for the user to reflect upon.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about “The Social Dilemma”?

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your followers are "real" followers, and if you are important to them, they'll get in touch outside the fed and will know where to find you. Maybe that's what we should strive for. I have 200+ followers on Twitter, but if you ask me, I can only name 15 with real, social interaction. And I think that's great.

If that's how you define "real" followers then you might as well use an IM application instead. IMO the whole point of (Twitter style) social media is having effortless reach and interactions without explicitly sending stuff to anybody. I had over 10 thousand and had many interactions with people but wouldn't feel like bothering them on other platforms (unless it was of the same nature). And the few people who bother…

Maybe that's why people are feeling lonely. They think their voice should reach thousands of people while they simply don't care about those thousands. How can I expect someone to care about me when I don't care about them beyond a useless number or marketing campaign?

People are thinking of others as consumers while expecting to be treated as a friend?

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about “The Social Dilemma”?

#228
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as someone who came from a rather colorful childhood of abuse, I'm wondering what your personal past is? You're assuming so much about the lives that folks lead, and to me it speaks of a lack of empathy for the personal struggles each individual is enduring. Stoicism will fix things in the west? I assume you mean the USA, but as a person in the USA, I have to say that we are about as stoic as you can get. We…

It's not just an argument about stoicism vs empathy, but freedom vs control. How much paternalism do you want from your politicians? How much control over your daily routine do you want to give some barely accountable millionaire legislator/governor/president who's loyalties are only to you based on how many votes their donors can buy (the rate differs greatly depending on the politician). The more effectively money…

We need a better word than "paternalism" for "not inclined to use a pandemic as an excuse to give trillions of dollars to the rich".

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about “The Social Dilemma”?

#229
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This type of thing reads like "please compost, recycle, and take public transportation" stuff. That's what I thought of the movie too. Andrew Keen has the right answer ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRbI-Ui9vEI ) but nobody likes it. We're still all stuck in the John Barlow trap, thinking that if we just tweaked things here and there all will be right.

TLDW: i think anonymity is a huge curse i think if we can do away with anonymity then we can begin to rebuild democracy and of course ultimately it comes down to all of us ultimately we need to learn to be responsible not to insult not to propagandize and i think that will only come just as we look at each other as physical people in a place like this that will only be that will only eventually be realized if we can…

cool story, bob29 the 18 day old account with no profile info ;)

I'm just teasing. HN survives on a strong culture, and a moderator who appears to be inhuman, or at least doesn't need the kind of sleep and bathroom breaks we associate with human beings.

Losing pseudonymity would be a high price to pay, for a bunch of reasons. Moderation, on the other hand, doesn't scale.

Perhaps that's a feature, not a bug. Maybe the scales moderation can't reach aren't scales we benefit from having.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about “The Social Dilemma”?

#230
I see that on netflix's info page it calls it a "documentary drama hybrid". That's a weird but accurate description, because as a documentary it's too biased and makes me feel that it tries too hard to push it's agenda to me. I agree with most of it's points, I deleted my facebook account several years ago, but they way this "docu-drama" represents its points makes me unable to take it seriously, because there's just too much drama in it.
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