Ask HN: What do you think about “The Social Dilemma”? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about “The Social Dilemma”?

#211

Post by barbs » Mon, Sep 14, 2020, 10:58 PM UTC

jmdocherty wrote: post #3

I'm a fanboi! I found this film incredibly powerful (esp. the comments during the closing credits). I've become a real bore when chatting with friends and other parents about this subject. Now I can simply say "watch The Social Dilemma" and return to discussing the weather! I found the tips on https://www.humanetech.com/take-control very helpful to interrupt my addition to my phone (particularly the monotone one).

Thanks for the link! Tristan, one of the main interviewees in the documentary, is a co-founder of that organisation (Center for Humane Technology).

Does anyone know of a good app/plugin that removes recommendations / the home screen feed from YouTube? I find that can be an attention-sink.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about “The Social Dilemma”?

#212

Post by godelski » Mon, Sep 14, 2020, 11:01 PM UTC

Osiris wrote: post #167

save_ferris wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact that people spend lots of time on social media just demonstrates that they derive something from it, not that it’s addictive or harmful. I was totally with you until this moment. This is like arguing that people with alcoholism get something out of drinking too much. It’s one thing to say that you’re comfortable with the amount of information that’s collected about you and how it’s used, but how can you ig…

> The fact that people spend lots of time on social media just demonstrates that they derive something from it, not that it’s addictive or harmful. I can't tell you how many times I hear my wife say "I need to get off Facebook" but never does. There's very much an addiction. I use Facebook, but I've found that I spend nearly all my time in specific groups (for me that's motorcycle related groups) because it's a great…

I often derive the most enjoyment through more niche social media spaces, such as HN or certain subreddits. I think the difficulty I have is that you get pigeonholed. I don't use Reddit as much because I like a few posts on /r/Funny and then my feed is taken over. I don't always want to go there to learn technical stuff, some days I just want memes. Other days I don't want any memes.

Content discovery is a difficult challenge but I think it is hard when incentives aren't aligned.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about “The Social Dilemma”?

#213

Post by godelski » Mon, Sep 14, 2020, 11:05 PM UTC

blueterminal wrote: post #36

save_ferris wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact that people spend lots of time on social media just demonstrates that they derive something from it, not that it’s addictive or harmful. I was totally with you until this moment. This is like arguing that people with alcoholism get something out of drinking too much. It’s one thing to say that you’re comfortable with the amount of information that’s collected about you and how it’s used, but how can you ig…

> These apps are absolutely addictive because they were explicitly and intentionally designed to be. Same goes with fast food, TV shows etc. It's your responsibility to not over-consume anything; and if you have children, teach them to not do that as well. The problem is not with FB, Google etc. The problem (which is over-consumption of everything) is cultural. Blaming some specific corporations is easy but it won't…

I think this argument is odd. You are literally arguing that every individual should have more self control than can be overcome by a team of experts whose job it is to defeat your control. I'm sorry, but we're just out matched.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about “The Social Dilemma”?

#214

Post by josalhor » Mon, Sep 14, 2020, 11:11 PM UTC

capkutay wrote: post #199

I think the main takeaway was the influence on children. I don't think there's precedent for providing kids with constant access to dopamine-driven, socially adjacent experiences. At least with TV and video games, they're finite activities with time limits (hopefully). Yet giving a pre-teen a phone where they're constantly being spammed with addictive content is dangerous. I can't even imagine all the psychological a…

I do agree the main problem is the influence on children.

As for the adults, I do believe the biggest takeaway is not advertising. It is the effect on information propagation. I have seen people close to me share clearly fake information that wouldn't have made the cut on most traditional media outlets.

People are giving way too much credibility to information that cannot be traced with a proper source. In the past people relied on the media to do the research, as biased as they may be. Now this research phase has disappeared.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about “The Social Dilemma”?

#215

Post by wombatmobile » Mon, Sep 14, 2020, 11:14 PM UTC

I read Shoshana Zuboff's book Surveillance Capitalism, which was the jolt I needed to quit Facebook. Prior to those reveals, I was aware that the FB experience was more dark than fun; the reveals of the exploitation just nudged me into leaving, because I don't like being exploited.

Then I found and joined HN. It's a better experience. I think the guidelines make it so. They aren't 100% followed 100% of the time, but the intent makes HN a vastly better experience than FB.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community.

Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.

When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3."

Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.

Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about “The Social Dilemma”?

#216

Post by bob29 » Mon, Sep 14, 2020, 11:22 PM UTC

knobcore wrote: post #173

Dumblydorr wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I quit FB 5 years ago due to a couple other friends quitting and explaining their reasoning. If .1% of FB or Twitter users delete after this film, I'd say it's still a win.

This type of thing reads like "please compost, recycle, and take public transportation" stuff. That's what I thought of the movie too. Andrew Keen has the right answer ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRbI-Ui9vEI ) but nobody likes it. We're still all stuck in the John Barlow trap, thinking that if we just tweaked things here and there all will be right.

TLDW: i think anonymity is a huge curse i think if we can do away with anonymity then we can begin to rebuild democracy and of course ultimately it comes down to all of us ultimately we need to learn to be responsible not to insult not to propagandize and i think that will only come just as we look at each other as physical people in a place like this that will only be that will only eventually be realized if we can do away with anonymity so a new social contract new ways of reinventing democracy through analog and a more creative and responsible regulatory attitude towards um to to big social media and internet companies

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about “The Social Dilemma”?

#217

Post by tenebrisalietum » Mon, Sep 14, 2020, 11:34 PM UTC

blueterminal wrote: post #36

save_ferris wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact that people spend lots of time on social media just demonstrates that they derive something from it, not that it’s addictive or harmful. I was totally with you until this moment. This is like arguing that people with alcoholism get something out of drinking too much. It’s one thing to say that you’re comfortable with the amount of information that’s collected about you and how it’s used, but how can you ig…

> These apps are absolutely addictive because they were explicitly and intentionally designed to be. Same goes with fast food, TV shows etc. It's your responsibility to not over-consume anything; and if you have children, teach them to not do that as well. The problem is not with FB, Google etc. The problem (which is over-consumption of everything) is cultural. Blaming some specific corporations is easy but it won't…

This argument and arguments like it suck because it fails to recognize that people who can't control themselves have the potential cause harm to those who can. Stoicism would only work if everyone would instantly adopt it at once.

People who mal-consume social media contribute to cancel culture, spreading lies and propaganda, and providing the fuel for negative power-seeking behavior in political and business realms. These have very real consequences for those innocent parties that don't mal-consume social media.

Aligning with your libertarian pattern, you can say "Well it's up to the people who can control themselves to defend themselves from the people who can't", and then that's precisely why we would introduce laws/regulations limiting things.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about “The Social Dilemma”?

#218

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Sep 14, 2020, 11:43 PM UTC

renewiltord wrote: post #210

ccortes wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The fact that people spend lots of time on social media just demonstrates that they derive something from it, not that it’s addictive or harmful. I think the point of the movie is to show that it is addictive and harmful and it is built that way intentionally. And it gets worse for younger generations. >Regardless, social media isn’t going to suddenly make me believe the moon landing was fake, so I don’t see it as b…

The truth is that platforms like HN are the worst offenders. While consumption-oriented platforms are clearly consumption-oriented, the addiction from text-based platforms like HN is far more insidious. People think they're making a difference when they come here, but nothing is happening. They get the dopamine hit of some karma, and replies, but they're in their trench and the other guy is in the other trench and th…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about “The Social Dilemma”?

#219

Post by ende » Mon, Sep 14, 2020, 11:59 PM UTC

newscracker wrote: post #8

Though there was hardly anything that I didn't already know , I liked the movie very much for its presentation that drove the point well to people who may not have understood how these platforms work, the privacy implications and the dangers therein. I've already recommended this movie to some more people. As for the cultural impact of the movie, I don't think it's going to be much. Cambridge Analytica had so much ne…

Rather than surgical regulation, which as you rightly point out is often prone to capture, I would instead propose a cruder but effective governing instrument: the Pigovian tax

Trace the chain of incentivizes further upstream, and what do we find? What animates the system? It’s advertising revenue, of course. So let’s tax the living hell out of advertising revenue.

Fundamentally decreasing the profitability of a market is a sure way to disincentivize profiteering interests in it.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about “The Social Dilemma”?

#220

Post by _mkef » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 12:09 AM UTC

Good movie overall.

I also suggest Ten Arguments for Deleting Your Social Media Accounts Right Now , by Jaron Lanier

Jaron is in the documentary and makes additional points. Social Media is making you a jerk is a great one.

While he doesn't directly critique Online Dating, he does mention Catfishing and Ashley Madison being mostly bots. If you Google 'FTC sues Match' you'll find bots are very common across the industry.

At least now you can't detach online dating from social media , you need to get your matches to add you on Snapchat so you never actually meet anyone. Just off pure stats, people are more alone than ever before. By design it doesn't work for most people. And what company would want to lose subscribers ?

I found myself an anxiety filled 'lab rat' when using that junk. Deleted all my social media a year or so ago , and I've had no issue meeting great folks since.

Generally I go out to do things I want to do. Everyone that's joined me along the way, including a fellow .net programer, has been a bonus.

All that said, I see it getting much worse before it gets better. Social Media is eventually going to be regulated , but it's already destroyed a generation. Rates of suicide have exploded since Social Media became mainstream.