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Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

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Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#151

Post by Grimm1 »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #149
Grimm1 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah this entire statement was also incredibly ageist and painting with broad strokes. If your litmus test for good programmer is "number of languages known" you aren't a good programmer. I'm 25, I've been programming for 15 years now and professionally I have more than half a decade of experience and professionally have a senior title. If you want to play that game most older programmers absolutely do not keep up wi…

I'm 25 and have a senior title Is this grade inflation? In the physical sciences you get a doctorate in your late 20s, and you still are a greenhorn. Is computing really that shallow?

No, I have 15 years experience in computing. I assure you I am not a greenhorn and you are insulting.

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#152

Post by AnimalMuppet »

vkou wrote: post #141
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False dichotomy. (Uh, quadricotomy?) You can do a whiteboard interview without doing leet code. Do an actual coding interview (whether whiteboard or not). Don't do credentials-only. Don't do a lottery. And make sure you don't fall for a BS artist. But in your coding interview, don't do leet code . Just give a regular coding problem. Not a big one, not a long one, not an especially tricky one. Then watch them code, an…

> But in your coding interview, don't do leet code. Just give a regular coding problem. Not a big one, not a long one, not an especially tricky one. This limits the signal of the skill ceiling that you can pick up from the interview. Give an easy whiteboard problem, and both a great candidate and a good candidate will be evaluated to be roughly the same. (No red flags, both solved the question) It's a bit like hiring…

We in general don't need great. Good is OK. We just need to avoid bad or terrible.

But we still knew when great showed up. I was one of the interviewers. I remember that the interview switched, from us asking questions to find out how much the candidate knew, to us asking questions so we could learn stuff.

Now she's a principal engineer. In her spare time, she's also my boss.

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#153

Post by reaperducer »

Grimm1 wrote: post #150
reaperducer wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IBM is also a joke, just like Oracle. A 100-year-old company with $80,000,000,000 in annual revenue operating in 177 countries is "a joke?" I don't even know what to say, other than you're simply proving the points the graybeards in this discussion are making.

Every time I've interacted with someone from IBM I've found myself questioning how they've managed to continue being a company. Have you looked at their public facing offerings lately? Watson is garbage, IBM cloud is garbage. They're losing ground on pretty much everything that is a modern revenue driver and they're best offering is their IT services. Their strategy and execution are quite poor.

Every time I've interacted with someone from IBM

What percentage of IBM's 362,000 employees have you interacted with that is statistically meaningful?

Have you looked at their public facing offerings lately?

Only two of them. They were impressive. But you and I are looking at different offerings, probably in different market segments.

They're losing ground on pretty much everything that is a modern revenue driver

And yet, its income was up almost ten billion dollars last year. Seems like IBM knows very well how to drive revenue.

IBM has hundreds of products. I suggest you expand your view beyond the very few that are critiqued on HN.

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#154

Post by HarryHirsch »

Grimm1 wrote: post #151
HarryHirsch wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm 25 and have a senior title Is this grade inflation? In the physical sciences you get a doctorate in your late 20s, and you still are a greenhorn. Is computing really that shallow?

No, I have 15 years experience in computing. I assure you I am not a greenhorn and you are insulting.

I was talking about the field, not individuals. You do wonder: at what level of experience is a civil engineer senior? Maybe that explains why bridges do not routinely collapse while large software projects invariably end up being dumpster fires.

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#155

Post by reaperducer »

Grimm1 wrote: post #151
HarryHirsch wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm 25 and have a senior title Is this grade inflation? In the physical sciences you get a doctorate in your late 20s, and you still are a greenhorn. Is computing really that shallow?

No, I have 15 years experience in computing. I assure you I am not a greenhorn and you are insulting.

"I'm 25, I've been programming for 15 years now"

No one is going to look at your resume and be impressed by what you did when you were ten years old.

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#156

Post by Grimm1 »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #154
Grimm1 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I have 15 years experience in computing. I assure you I am not a greenhorn and you are insulting.

I was talking about the field, not individuals. You do wonder: at what level of experience is a civil engineer senior? Maybe that explains why bridges do not routinely collapse while large software projects invariably end up being dumpster fires.

Apologies. Food for thought.

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#157

Post by Grimm1 »

reaperducer wrote: post #155
Grimm1 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I have 15 years experience in computing. I assure you I am not a greenhorn and you are insulting.

"I'm 25, I've been programming for 15 years now" No one is going to look at your resume and be impressed by what you did when you were ten years old.

I agree which is why I didn't get my title by leveraging those things. Layering social graces on top of technical capability and delivering solidly on some larger scale projects both by planning, leading and executing them, however, will impress. I've been responsible for projects that have closed multi million dollar deals and lead full team rebuilding and system re-architectures.

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#158

Post by Grimm1 »

reaperducer wrote: post #153
Grimm1 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time I've interacted with someone from IBM I've found myself questioning how they've managed to continue being a company. Have you looked at their public facing offerings lately? Watson is garbage, IBM cloud is garbage. They're losing ground on pretty much everything that is a modern revenue driver and they're best offering is their IT services. Their strategy and execution are quite poor.

Every time I've interacted with someone from IBM What percentage of IBM's 362,000 employees have you interacted with that is statistically meaningful? Have you looked at their public facing offerings lately? Only two of them. They were impressive. But you and I are looking at different offerings, probably in different market segments. They're losing ground on pretty much everything that is a modern revenue driver And…

Ah you see I've interacted with some of their leadership which was enough for me, whether that is enough to be meaningful I suppose is a matter up for interpretation.

Fair point otherwise.

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#159

Post by throwaway189262 »

Grimm1 wrote: post #143
socrates1998 wrote: post #17

The big tech giants have used this marketing ploy that "older workers don't understand new tech" to undercut them at almost every opportunity. I honestly have no idea why they are allowed to get away with this in the media and public opinion. Maybe because older people don't know new tech, so they think older programmers don't know it either? It's insane to me that an older programmer with decades of experience and m…

Yeah this entire statement was also incredibly ageist and painting with broad strokes. If your litmus test for good programmer is "number of languages known" you aren't a good programmer. I'm 25, I've been programming for 15 years now and professionally I have more than half a decade of experience and professionally have a senior title. If you want to play that game most older programmers absolutely do not keep up wi…

> I have more than half a decade of experience and professionally have a senior title. If you want to play that game most older programmers absolutely do not keep up with me

You sound fun to work with. I agree with you that some old programmers just want to get paid. As I've gotten older I appreciate the reasons more. It still bothers me sometimes but whatever. Work is far from the most important thing in my life these days. When I was younger I was eager to get ahead, now I've realized IC's plateau around the same salary so there's no point to showing off unless you want to be management. And I like to code so no thanks.

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#160

Post by Grimm1 »

throwaway189262 wrote: post #159
Grimm1 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah this entire statement was also incredibly ageist and painting with broad strokes. If your litmus test for good programmer is "number of languages known" you aren't a good programmer. I'm 25, I've been programming for 15 years now and professionally I have more than half a decade of experience and professionally have a senior title. If you want to play that game most older programmers absolutely do not keep up wi…

> I have more than half a decade of experience and professionally have a senior title. If you want to play that game most older programmers absolutely do not keep up with me You sound fun to work with. I agree with you that some old programmers just want to get paid. As I've gotten older I appreciate the reasons more. It still bothers me sometimes but whatever. Work is far from the most important thing in my life the…

Sorry, I just get frustrated being told every 25 year old is a no experience green hack. I've worked with plenty of older devs who are absolutely a treasure to this industry.
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