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Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

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Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#141

Post by vkou »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #113
vkou wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you prefer a system of strict credentialism, a system of lotteries, or a system that optimizes for hiring the most eloquent bullshit artists, instead? Those are your three alternatives to the whiteboard interview. Which would you prefer? (I'm perfectly willing to admit I've missed one[1], but it's probably a subset of these three.) [1] Life-long German apprenticeship/Japanese salaryman arrangements don't work i…

False dichotomy. (Uh, quadricotomy?) You can do a whiteboard interview without doing leet code. Do an actual coding interview (whether whiteboard or not). Don't do credentials-only. Don't do a lottery. And make sure you don't fall for a BS artist. But in your coding interview, don't do leet code . Just give a regular coding problem. Not a big one, not a long one, not an especially tricky one. Then watch them code, an…

> But in your coding interview, don't do leet code. Just give a regular coding problem. Not a big one, not a long one, not an especially tricky one.

This limits the signal of the skill ceiling that you can pick up from the interview. Give an easy whiteboard problem, and both a great candidate and a good candidate will be evaluated to be roughly the same. (No red flags, both solved the question)

It's a bit like hiring a plumber, by giving each prospective contractor a two question quiz: "Which way does crap flow?" [1] and "When is payday?" [2]

At that point, you are just going with a lottery system.

[1] Downhill

[2] Friday

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#142

Post by holidayacct »

horns4lyfe wrote: post #112
holidayacct wrote: post #52

This happens repeatedly and isn't anything new. This happens because there are a bunch of mentally ill people running tech companies that want jobs to be about "belief". They don't want older people in tech because they want to empire build with the latest and greatest insecure technology. They want to create frustration engines with poor engineering practices they older tech workers won't put up with it. The goal is…

This is fascinating, do you have any particular examples of the last paragraph especially? Not saying I don't believe you, but I'm very curious.

I'd love to but I've signed NDAs for the companies I've worked for.

If you like advertising that will put on the right path.

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#143

Post by Grimm1 »

socrates1998 wrote: post #17

The big tech giants have used this marketing ploy that "older workers don't understand new tech" to undercut them at almost every opportunity. I honestly have no idea why they are allowed to get away with this in the media and public opinion. Maybe because older people don't know new tech, so they think older programmers don't know it either? It's insane to me that an older programmer with decades of experience and m…

Yeah this entire statement was also incredibly ageist and painting with broad strokes. If your litmus test for good programmer is "number of languages known" you aren't a good programmer. I'm 25, I've been programming for 15 years now and professionally I have more than half a decade of experience and professionally have a senior title. If you want to play that game most older programmers absolutely do not keep up with me and I've worked with a few that should have absolutely clocked out a while ago.

IBM is also a joke, just like Oracle.

Edit: Now that the vein has stopped bulging on my forehead, I agree with your point that experience is valuable. However it comes in many packages and dismissing someone because they're 50 or 25 is equally wrong and you just did the same thing you're ranting at IBM about.

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#144

Post by dyeje »

commandlinefan wrote: post #26
socrates1998 wrote: post #17

The big tech giants have used this marketing ploy that "older workers don't understand new tech" to undercut them at almost every opportunity. I honestly have no idea why they are allowed to get away with this in the media and public opinion. Maybe because older people don't know new tech, so they think older programmers don't know it either? It's insane to me that an older programmer with decades of experience and m…

> cheaper, contractor rates. Are contractors cheaper than permanent employees? I always thought it was the opposite - that's why so many positions are "contract to hire". They'd rather have a perm employee, but they want to deal with contracting for a few months just to be on the safe side.

No, contractors are significantly cheaper because no payroll taxes, benefits, time off, etc.

Contract to hire is typically through staffing agencies. The company can go through various contractors and hire the ones they like full time.

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#145

Post by lostcolony »

itronitron wrote: post #130
x87678r wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> after changing careers. This is a big one. There are arguments for not hiring older experience programmers, then there is a different issue about hiring older people that want to be new programmers. I'd think the second group wont have much hope of getting hired.

Given equivalent coding experience and ability, I'd rather hire an older programmer than a younger programmer.

Likewise.

A decade or two of 'unrelated' experience dealing with people, solving problems, or hell, even just dealing with administrative and bureaucratic bullshit? And the same amount of 'related' experience? For the same price? All other things being equal, give me the older person any day.

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#146

Post by AmericanChopper »

horns4lyfe wrote: post #112
holidayacct wrote: post #52

This happens repeatedly and isn't anything new. This happens because there are a bunch of mentally ill people running tech companies that want jobs to be about "belief". They don't want older people in tech because they want to empire build with the latest and greatest insecure technology. They want to create frustration engines with poor engineering practices they older tech workers won't put up with it. The goal is…

This is fascinating, do you have any particular examples of the last paragraph especially? Not saying I don't believe you, but I'm very curious.

I've worked at a couple of startups that have operated like this. They had vaporware products, and were focused more on getting money out of investors than they were brining a product to market. I arrive and realize that the code quality is absolutely terrible, and worse, the approach they've decided to take is simply never going to work. I report a list of problems to the CEO, tell them they won't be launching in six months, and that the fastest way for them to get a functional product would actually be to throw everything away and start again.

This makes the CEO angry, because they don't care if they have a working product. They only care about having a good story to tell investors. This makes the existing technical leadership angry, because they don't know how to do things properly, so having somebody say they're doing it wrong is obviously a big issue for them. In fact, the only reason they're in technical leadership positions to begin with is because the startup decided to cheap out and hire people with 2 years experience working in body shops as "tech leads". I realize the company can't be fixed so I leave, and the company folds once it reaches the end of it's runway.

Companies like this aren't terribly uncommon, and they exist primarily to defraud inexperienced investors. FWIW, I've seen this play out at every blockchain startup I've contracted at.

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#147

Post by reaperducer »

greenyoda wrote: post #106
freetanga wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are spot on. I run a medium sized IT Team (400 employees plus 600 external contractors) and I like to go against the grain: In the past 12 months I have hired 15 people, and 13 are over 52 years old. Most have been laid off, got a juicy check that translates into a good nest egg, but not enough to make it their only source of income until retirement. A good job with a steady (but lower than before) income…

Two things surprised me here: 1. What does HR know about running an agile IT department? Why would they second-guess your decision on who to hire? 2. One of HR's biggest responsibilities is to protect the company from lawsuits. If HR itself has a bias against older employees, that would indicate that they're not even qualified to perform their own job, let alone tell the IT department how to do theirs.

I find neither of those things surprising.

The companies I've worked with have HR departments staffed by people who are also straight out of college. They have no knowledge or concept of people older than their circle, nor of all the legal consequences of their position. As far as I know, there is no "HR school" that teaches people these things. They learn by failure.

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#148

Post by reaperducer »

Grimm1 wrote: post #143
socrates1998 wrote: post #17

The big tech giants have used this marketing ploy that "older workers don't understand new tech" to undercut them at almost every opportunity. I honestly have no idea why they are allowed to get away with this in the media and public opinion. Maybe because older people don't know new tech, so they think older programmers don't know it either? It's insane to me that an older programmer with decades of experience and m…

Yeah this entire statement was also incredibly ageist and painting with broad strokes. If your litmus test for good programmer is "number of languages known" you aren't a good programmer. I'm 25, I've been programming for 15 years now and professionally I have more than half a decade of experience and professionally have a senior title. If you want to play that game most older programmers absolutely do not keep up wi…

IBM is also a joke, just like Oracle.

A 100-year-old company with $80,000,000,000 in annual revenue operating in 177 countries is "a joke?"

I don't even know what to say, other than you're simply proving the points the graybeards in this discussion are making.

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#149

Post by HarryHirsch »

Grimm1 wrote: post #143
socrates1998 wrote: post #17

The big tech giants have used this marketing ploy that "older workers don't understand new tech" to undercut them at almost every opportunity. I honestly have no idea why they are allowed to get away with this in the media and public opinion. Maybe because older people don't know new tech, so they think older programmers don't know it either? It's insane to me that an older programmer with decades of experience and m…

Yeah this entire statement was also incredibly ageist and painting with broad strokes. If your litmus test for good programmer is "number of languages known" you aren't a good programmer. I'm 25, I've been programming for 15 years now and professionally I have more than half a decade of experience and professionally have a senior title. If you want to play that game most older programmers absolutely do not keep up wi…

I'm 25 and have a senior title

Is this grade inflation? In the physical sciences you get a doctorate in your late 20s, and you still are a greenhorn. Is computing really that shallow?

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#150

Post by Grimm1 »

reaperducer wrote: post #148
Grimm1 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah this entire statement was also incredibly ageist and painting with broad strokes. If your litmus test for good programmer is "number of languages known" you aren't a good programmer. I'm 25, I've been programming for 15 years now and professionally I have more than half a decade of experience and professionally have a senior title. If you want to play that game most older programmers absolutely do not keep up wi…

IBM is also a joke, just like Oracle. A 100-year-old company with $80,000,000,000 in annual revenue operating in 177 countries is "a joke?" I don't even know what to say, other than you're simply proving the points the graybeards in this discussion are making.

Every time I've interacted with someone from IBM I've found myself questioning how they've managed to continue being a company. Have you looked at their public facing offerings lately? Watson is garbage, IBM cloud is garbage. They're losing ground on pretty much everything that is a modern revenue driver and they're best offering is their IT services.

Their strategy and execution are quite poor.

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