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The Case for Dumping the Electoral College

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Re: The Case for Dumping the Electoral College

#91
post #75
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious answer: it is hardly a given that a "higher power" will favor your idea of "good" over your idea of "bad". Or even if it does, that it will always continue to do so and will always continue to enforce your preferences, even if your preferences someday change. All that a higher power will enforce is uniformity, which could just as easily be (or later become) uniformly bad for you as uniformly good for you. Wit…

I just don't understand having "United" states at that point. In your vision... which I'm not arguing for or against - I can't fathom a reason in which we don't just break up into countries. As it stands, the states with the highest levels of education and economic output in the U.S. truly do tend to prop up the states with the lowest levels of education and output. However, the states being propped up also seem to a…

The "united" part was to prevent large, external states (initially, Great Britain) from taking away the liberty of each small state to live as its own citizens chose to live. The US Constitution was a mutual-defense pact meant to defend that liberty while, at the same time, defending the states from similar threats from one another. Most things in life would be state-based, where the citizens lived. Federal things were for state vs state, both internal and external, not state vs citizen.

The point of it was to defend the independence of small groups against the large. When local opinions changed about the "right" way to live, which history shows happens again and again, this system allowed the local group to change how they lived without requiring the "permission" of other states (internal to the union or external). If your own group (or you) changed, and you no longer liked your local state as much as some other where they made "better" choices, you would have the option to vote with your feet, as hundreds of millions have over the centuries. This system also attracted vast numbers of people from other places who chose not the "country" but the specific state that most suited them.

Re: The Case for Dumping the Electoral College

#92

There are deeper cases for revisiting the Electoral College than "I don't like it when the popular vote doesn't favor me". One primary issue is that the Electors for each state are not elected. A patch for this and guidance for their behaviors is something that has to be addressed in each state on their own, with a few states here or there seeming to force Electors to submit certain information, such as the popular v…

Supreme Court ruled this year that that's not so, you can't be a faithless elector.

https://www.npr.org/2020/07/06/885168480/supreme-court-rules...

Re: The Case for Dumping the Electoral College

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Consider our inability to coordinate a proper pandemic response, or the current smoke catastrophe spanning the west coast. The problems facing our country are increasingly national in scope, and require coordinated responses at the federal level. I believe our entrenched commitment to federalism and state's rights is going to hold us back more and more in the years ahead.

Why do you think pandemic response or wildfire are national in scope? Both can be handled at the state level. For example California, Oregon, and a Washington could perform necessary controlled burning ( https://www.npr.org/2020/08/24/899422710/to-manage-wildfire-... ) or harvest trees on a timely basis ( https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/19/us/california-today-100-m... ), or at least stay in target with even their exi…

And if that state can’t, for one of a hundred reasons, respond appropriately, the effects are not limited to that state.

For the pandemic, people traveling into, out of, or through the state will spread it to surrounding states (Florida is one great example of how a state not responding appropriately has broader impacts on the nation).

For wildfires, fire knows no state boundaries, and smoke is even more promiscuous in its spread.

Re: The Case for Dumping the Electoral College

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider that our current president is a populist and it could be argued that he only didn't win the popular vote because he didn't focus on that, but rather on the electoral college. I think the founding fathers would cite our current president as the reason they didn't trust direct democracy... It's food for thought whenever I think about pushing more towards direct democracy. I've been leaning towards proportional…

I really can't grant that first paragraph in good faith without some evidence. How could you possibly divine the intent of the 2016 Trump campaign? We still can't agree on a vast number of its actions, let alone its strategy.

You want evidence that Trump

1) didn't try to win the popular vote i.e. specifically did not court the votes of certain people

2) In order to run as a populist i.e. shore up votes from his base

3) because the Electoral College system supports just such a strategy, such that winning 51% of a few states while only getting 45% of the vote

Well, other than his entire campaign, the clearest evidence I can give is this in the face of actual polling numbers indicating that #1 and #2 had come to pass in the summer of 2016, the campaign's advertising dollars focused almost exclusively on the Obama states he ended up flipping.

Re: The Case for Dumping the Electoral College

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think pandemic response or wildfire are national in scope? Both can be handled at the state level. For example California, Oregon, and a Washington could perform necessary controlled burning ( https://www.npr.org/2020/08/24/899422710/to-manage-wildfire-... ) or harvest trees on a timely basis ( https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/19/us/california-today-100-m... ), or at least stay in target with even their exi…

And if that state can’t, for one of a hundred reasons, respond appropriately, the effects are not limited to that state. For the pandemic, people traveling into, out of, or through the state will spread it to surrounding states (Florida is one great example of how a state not responding appropriately has broader impacts on the nation). For wildfires, fire knows no state boundaries, and smoke is even more promiscuous…

Europe manage to handle those things just fine and local politics is very decoupled from EU politics. Why wouldn't states be allowed to close borders under emergencies?

Re: The Case for Dumping the Electoral College

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if that state can’t, for one of a hundred reasons, respond appropriately, the effects are not limited to that state. For the pandemic, people traveling into, out of, or through the state will spread it to surrounding states (Florida is one great example of how a state not responding appropriately has broader impacts on the nation). For wildfires, fire knows no state boundaries, and smoke is even more promiscuous…

Europe manage to handle those things just fine and local politics is very decoupled from EU politics. Why wouldn't states be allowed to close borders under emergencies?

Because a state is not a country. It doesn't have a military, border patrol, national guard, etc. That is to say, it doesn't have the manpower. And it could - practically speaking - never raise the money to do so (states have enough trouble paying their teachers, sanitation workers, paving roads, etc).

Re: The Case for Dumping the Electoral College

#97

One half solution that people don't tend to bring up: massively increase the number of members of congress. The formula for a states representation in the electoral college is {number of senators + number of representatives}. Since the senate is fixed at 2 senators per state, it massively advantages small states in terms of political power per person. The number of representatives per state is currently set at 435, a…

This is important for way more than just Presidential elections. It helps solve the money in politics problem as well by diluting power and making representatives more accountable.

Re: The Case for Dumping the Electoral College

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on what you mean by "should." As far as legal, historical, and constitutional reasons go, the original idea of the US was sovereign states under a limited federal government. The federal government inherently had no power except that explicitly granted to it by the constitution. Several part of the constitution (most notably the commerce clause) have been stretched far beyond their original meaning and purpos…

Do you know the history of “states rights” in the south?

Federally guaranteeing human rights and federally levying significant taxes are two very different things.

Re: The Case for Dumping the Electoral College

#99

There are deeper cases for revisiting the Electoral College than "I don't like it when the popular vote doesn't favor me". One primary issue is that the Electors for each state are not elected. A patch for this and guidance for their behaviors is something that has to be addressed in each state on their own, with a few states here or there seeming to force Electors to submit certain information, such as the popular v…

Supreme Court ruled this year that that's not so, you can't be a faithless elector. https://www.npr.org/2020/07/06/885168480/supreme-court-rules...

That’s a decent clarification

Re: The Case for Dumping the Electoral College

#100
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And given all of these screwed up things, you would put it to these people to write a better framework? You say "The only things people can point to that they like about the constitution are..." and then proceed to point out things that are not even in the constitution. Here is something to like about the constitution: a system of government that has seen the peaceful transition of power every 4 years for 244 consecu…

>a system of government that has seen the peaceful transition of power every 4 years for 244 consecutive years. If you don't count that little incident in the 1860's

Yeah those pesky southern Democrats keep trying to make things difficult.
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