IGDA about the Amazon Android Appstore: just say no. • Hacker News Board

Re: IGDA about the Amazon Android Appstore: just say no.

#21

Post by jim-greer » Thu, Apr 14, 2011, 2:07 PM UTC

Shorel wrote: post #9

Any Indie developer with experience on Steam sales to light up this issue? Seems to me that the arguments of IGDA sound very close to the arguments of the RIAA and real numbers will show a very different outcome, specially for the smaller devs.

I don't see how the numbers could show that this scenario is fair.

- Developer sets a minimum list price of $0.99 (fair)

- Amazon has an 80% off sale (fair)

- Developer later has an 80% sale on Android Market (fair)

- Amazon can now sell the app for 96% off, because the sale on Android Market resets the minimum list price (unfair)

The developer is punished for having a sale on a competing market by now allowing Amazon to sell the app for $0.04, forever.

Re: IGDA about the Amazon Android Appstore: just say no.

#22

Post by tybris » Thu, Apr 14, 2011, 2:10 PM UTC

or... be an entrepreneur and take a chance...

Re: IGDA about the Amazon Android Appstore: just say no.

#23

Post by allwein » Thu, Apr 14, 2011, 2:13 PM UTC

I'd need to read the Amazon agreement much more closely, but what's to stop developers from gaming this by taking all their apps released on Amazon's app store and making them special "Amazon Editions"?

Then the argument is there that the minimum list price on Google's store doesn't apply, because the Google Edition and the Amazon Edition are two different apps.

Re: IGDA about the Amazon Android Appstore: just say no.

#24

Post by jcl » Thu, Apr 14, 2011, 2:14 PM UTC

epoxyhockey wrote: post #19

shareme wrote: post #12

Just wait folks..remember most device users have do one extra step to get these apps..if we pressure Amazon enough these terms will change.. In my own case I am going with: 1. Android Market 2. SlideMe 3 GetJar ..when Amazon changes the terms as it should be pricing only at their market pricing at other markets should not bear on pricing at theirs..its a anti-trust potential violation via the collusion implications o…

Users having to go through all of the extra steps just to install and enable the Amazon app is enough reason for not publishing via Amazon's app store. Also, users have to enable Amazon's 1-click mobile purchasing. A 2nd huge hurdle.

That probably won't be true long-term. Amazon is perfectly capable of cutting deals with manufacturers/carriers to get their apps pre-installed; their MP3 app comes with many Android phones.

Re: IGDA about the Amazon Android Appstore: just say no.

#25

Post by metageek » Thu, Apr 14, 2011, 2:24 PM UTC

_delirium wrote: post #20

aristidb wrote: post #13

Amazon does however have an incentive to maximize revenue and there is a lower bound to what a developer gets (a percentage of the list price), even if Amazon promotes it for free, so Amazon loses money on that. I think Amazon is better at optimizing pricing than most game developers are, so I expect this to improve revenue for both Amazon and the game developers. But only time will tell for sure. Panicking is not th…

I can believe that if Amazon were sticking to terms for its own market, but Amazon is attempting to prohibit anyone who sells through its market from simultaneously trying other pricing strategies in other channels. That seems more like a classic attempt at using market power in one channel to coerce behavior in other channels, rather than competing on the product's actual strength (unlike Google or even Apple).

It's exactly like Apple's rule for in-app purchases.

Re: IGDA about the Amazon Android Appstore: just say no.

#26

Post by jonknee » Thu, Apr 14, 2011, 2:26 PM UTC

_delirium wrote: post #20

aristidb wrote: post #13

Amazon does however have an incentive to maximize revenue and there is a lower bound to what a developer gets (a percentage of the list price), even if Amazon promotes it for free, so Amazon loses money on that. I think Amazon is better at optimizing pricing than most game developers are, so I expect this to improve revenue for both Amazon and the game developers. But only time will tell for sure. Panicking is not th…

I can believe that if Amazon were sticking to terms for its own market, but Amazon is attempting to prohibit anyone who sells through its market from simultaneously trying other pricing strategies in other channels. That seems more like a classic attempt at using market power in one channel to coerce behavior in other channels, rather than competing on the product's actual strength (unlike Google or even Apple).

You can try other pricing strategies, it's just that you need to give Amazon the lowest list price. No different than Apple really, requiring your in-app content to match the lowest pricing available.

Amazon and [to a much greater extent] Wal-Mart play these games with physical goods too. It's just you never get to read the terms and big distributors don't complain publicly.

Re: IGDA about the Amazon Android Appstore: just say no.

#27

Post by jonknee » Thu, Apr 14, 2011, 2:29 PM UTC

jrockway wrote: post #4

_delirium wrote: post #2

Sounds like Amazon is trying to extend to apps the weird pricing racket that's standard in the bookselling industry. A lot of books are cheaper via Amazon than via the publisher's or author's own site precisely because of these kinds of terms, which require you to sell to the bookseller at a steep discount over list price, and simultaneously prohibit you from selling below "list price" yourself, outside the bookselle…

I don't think an agreement with Amazon is what prevents the publisher from selling at list price. It's the fact that Amazon (and every other bookseller) would simply refuse to buy the books from the publisher if they were being undercut.

With billions of dollars on the line, I'd be shocked if it's not in writing.

Re: IGDA about the Amazon Android Appstore: just say no.

#28

Post by fomojola » Thu, Apr 14, 2011, 2:29 PM UTC

Until Amazon fixes that, there is quite frankly no incentive to use their store for anything that isn't free. I had thought that cross-promotion for software that works with hardware Amazon sells would be win, but until Amazon fixes their pricing policies I've no interest at all in their store. 30% off the top is bad enough but at least you got to determine the price. 20% of list price on a 99-cent app? Really?

FAIL. Call me back when you get your mind right.

Re: IGDA about the Amazon Android Appstore: just say no.

#29

Post by _delirium » Thu, Apr 14, 2011, 2:30 PM UTC

jonknee wrote: post #26

_delirium wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can believe that if Amazon were sticking to terms for its own market, but Amazon is attempting to prohibit anyone who sells through its market from simultaneously trying other pricing strategies in other channels. That seems more like a classic attempt at using market power in one channel to coerce behavior in other channels, rather than competing on the product's actual strength (unlike Google or even Apple).

You can try other pricing strategies, it's just that you need to give Amazon the lowest list price. No different than Apple really, requiring your in-app content to match the lowest pricing available. Amazon and [to a much greater extent] Wal-Mart play these games with physical goods too. It's just you never get to read the terms and big distributors don't complain publicly.

You do hear complaints from smaller publishers a lot w.r.t. physical goods, and their troubles are one reason I hope this doesn't catch on. They're left with the poor choice of selling through booksellers, or selling direct to consumers at a reasonable price, but can't do both.

If their break-even price is, say, $8, then they might want to sell it for list $9.99. But then Amazon wants it for $5 wholesale (half list), which would be a loss per book. To sell it to Amazon for at least $9 (a $1 profit), they have to set the list price at $18. But now that's too high for how they want to price it on their own www.publishersite.com online store, and they aren't allowed to discount it back down to the $9.99 they actually want to charge.

So you have a weird situation where as a condition of selling on Amazon, they aren't allowed to sell outside Amazon for a reasonable markup above cost!

Re: IGDA about the Amazon Android Appstore: just say no.

#30

Post by jcl » Thu, Apr 14, 2011, 2:32 PM UTC

I'm surprised the IGDA didn't also call out Amazon's apparent requirement that a developer must allow Amazon to distribute all the software the developer is distributing through other channels. In other words, there's no way to try out Amazon's service with just one title -- it's all or nothing.