Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not really. I am proposing a theoretical solution to a philosophical problem. You are the one jumping to imagining how it could be implemented in a biased way.
I am not doing any of that. I am just using your own argument against you.
The Universe Knows Right from Wrong
81–90 of 119 posts
Re: The Universe Knows Right from Wrong
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah, doesn't make sense. I prefer a simpler argument for why there is a subset of morality that's universal for (vast majority of) humans: argument from shared brain architecture. We're essentially running the same wetware under the hood, at least on the time scales of human civilization. So while the universe doesn't necessarily privilege a set of values, human brains are . And that's all that really matters (until…
I like the idea that morality is something that is built by mankind and that needs to be extracted by studies. For instance, economists have found the value at which US society estimates an American's life by seeing at which point risks balances costs in some hazardous investments.
It is also possible that the metric is considering only one aspect of a society's ethical position, especially given that things like trolley problems, and some of the things that are done in the name of nominally ethical religions, suggest that people are not consistently rational in their ethical thinking and behavior.
One might, for example, value another's life purely on the economic value it is to oneself - would that be an ethical position or the absense of one? I don't doubt that one could make some sort of argument for the former, but ethics are really only interesting when they are at odds with perceived self-interest.
Re: The Universe Knows Right from Wrong
#83Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Mathematical truths are defined to be true Perhaps a nitpick, but: axioms are defined to be true. Mathematics, roughly speaking, is the business of exploring the consequences of chosen sets of axioms. Sometimes published mathematical theorems turn out to be wrong.
I don't follow what you're taking issue with. Naturally by "mathematical truths" I meant axioms and statements that are reducible to axioms - there isn't really anything else for it to mean, after all. On the "sometimes published theorems are wrong" part you've lost me entirely.
That distinction is important, and it seemed to me you'd skimmed over it.
Axioms are directly defined to be true for the purposes of mathematical inquiry, and as such can't really be wrong. At worst, a set of axioms can be inconsistent.
Emergent properties are different; they're not directly defined to be true. This is of practical consequence, as mathematicians sometimes get them wrong.
Re: The Universe Knows Right from Wrong
#84Earlier quoted context omitted.
What is your standard for "accuracy" ?
Why do every "philosophical" debate ends up with "let's play semantic and never address the question being actually debated?" Philosophy is about answering real, deep questions, not about trying to find smart ways to pretend your interlocutor is confusing when defining a field that is characterized by the vagueness of the concepts it explores. Either make an effort to understand what your interlocutor mean or explici…
I am arguing that the social aspect of morality isn't about measurement, but about whose yardstick we should be using.
Said differently: How do we calibrate our measurement instruments?
Man is the measure of all things. --Protagoras.
Re: The Universe Knows Right from Wrong
#85https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty_in_ancient_Greece
(This is not a defence of Epstein but a criticism of the article's argument and coherence.)
Re: The Universe Knows Right from Wrong
#86Earlier quoted context omitted.
I like the idea that morality is something that is built by mankind and that needs to be extracted by studies. For instance, economists have found the value at which US society estimates an American's life by seeing at which point risks balances costs in some hazardous investments.
Maybe, but a measure of the phenomenon is not an explanation of how human societies came to have an ethical aspect. It is also possible that the metric is considering only one aspect of a society's ethical position, especially given that things like trolley problems, and some of the things that are done in the name of nominally ethical religions, suggest that people are not consistently rational in their ethical thin…
Re: The Universe Knows Right from Wrong
#87> But the problem for .. anyone who tries to ground moral truth in the natural world, is that moral truths, like mathematical truths, are necessarily true, which means that it’s impossible for them to be false. What a bizarre argument. Mathematical truths are defined to be true -- entirely the opposite of what the author is trying to claim about moral truths, so this is about as absurd a comparison as one could make.…
Going further, in Critique of Pure Reason Kant uses mathematics as an example of synthetic a priori knowledge. This is the lever he uses to overturn the traditional halving of all knowledge into either analytic and a priori or synthetic and a posteriori (empirical). The halving was the basis for Hume's radical skepticism and it's predecessors.
Re: The Universe Knows Right from Wrong
#88What is cruelty? He's just juxtaposing abstract "cruelty" with some unspecified hypothetical and assumes it is meaningful. Cruelty presumes opposition to nature, so it makes no sense to say that some act A, understood in the abstract, is cruel.
"Different statues are made of different clay; on the container view in contrast, everything that does, or could, exist is a manifestation of the same Reality."
Prima facie, sounds like a vulgarization of God-as-Being, i.e., all things exist as potentially existing in relation to actually existing things, and actually existing things are like potential things in relation to the act of existence that causes them to be, which is God.
"If we follow Aristotle in grounding moral truth in the goal-directed nature of human beings, then we fail to account for the necessity of moral truths."
The aim was never necessity but nature. The natural law is called thus for a reason. I don't know what "good" or "bad" is apart from the nature of a thing.
"My proposal is that the inherently directed nature of Reality entails that it’s objectively good for Reality when it manifests as pleasure and objectively bad for Reality when it manifests as pain."
He's elevating the world of plural substances to the level of a single substance and referring to it as Reality. But this does nothing to convert the natural moral law into the necessary moral law because you've just reduced the universe to one thing whose nature is such that such-and-such is good for it and such-and-such is not. To accomplish that kind of necessity, he would have to identity nature with necessity and that would require identifying what he called "Reality" with God. If Reality is God, then this is pantheism. But why this need to posit necessity?
"Foundational theories of morality have been locked in a perennial tug of war between the supernaturalism of Plato and the naturalism of his opponents."
Has he explored Thomism? Forms exist only in things and the mind, but also in God. Thus, you have both access to moral truths by knowing the natures of things, but even with the destruction of those things, they continue to exist in God (even if we may not be able to know them). Also, it is bad for human beings to harm others at least because it harms the common good and thus their own good. It is against our own natures to do so.
Re: The Universe Knows Right from Wrong
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
There is an even simpler explanation: some moral principles push people towards a game-theoretic optimum, so evolution selects for it. Eg, a society that allows random murders will be at a staggering disadvantage. By magic, most (all?) societies have strong moral arguments against murder. Ditto honesty - honest societies have structural advantages. Any cooperative species will have something that looks like morality.…
"Optimum" is a moral notion. You're begging the question.
Re: The Universe Knows Right from Wrong
#90Earlier quoted context omitted.
There is an even simpler explanation: some moral principles push people towards a game-theoretic optimum, so evolution selects for it. Eg, a society that allows random murders will be at a staggering disadvantage. By magic, most (all?) societies have strong moral arguments against murder. Ditto honesty - honest societies have structural advantages. Any cooperative species will have something that looks like morality.…
"Optimum" is a moral notion. You're begging the question.