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The Universe Knows Right from Wrong

nautil.us

11–20 of 119 posts

Re: The Universe Knows Right from Wrong

#11
Here is my take:

All knowledge is ultimately based on assumptions, and those assumptions ultimately hang in thin air. We rely on our senses to observe the world around us, and we rely on our mental faculties to interpenetrate what we observe. But we have no way of knowing if our senses, and our mental faculties, can be trusted, if they are accurate to some objective reality.

It might very well be that what we take in from our surroundings and environment isn't an "objective reality", but an incredibly twisted and mangled version which is has more falsehoods, inaccuracies and errors, than any truths. To say that the sky is blue is an incredibly "human" observation, which relies on our eyes having divided the light spectrum into arbitrary ranges we call colors. There is no grounding to distinct colors, other than what our eyes and brain arbitrarily imposes to make sense of what it's taking in. It's a clever, but arbitrary, way to look at the light spectrum.

But we do the best with what we have, there is no point in wallowing in pity, we simply work with the tools we are given. Now, even if we cannot justify it, it does appear to us that murder is morally wrong. We are repulsed by it, we wish to avoid it, we want to minimize it, we label those who do it as being flawed and broken, and we have all sorts of theories and ideas about how murder doesn't fit in with how human life operates.

Even though I cannot point you to any objective anchoring as to why murder is wrong, I can neither point you to any objective anchoring for anything. I cannot prove that what I see, touch, feel, smell and hear is really there, nor that what I am observing is in any way accurate. Even the most basic mathematical facts are suspect, if you can't verify the mental faculties behind it.

So why reject the moral facts I cannot verify, but accept the observable, evidential, mathematical facts that I cannot verify? Who gets to choose which ones gets a pass? I think murder is wrong for the same reason I think the sky is blue: because that's what my senses, body and mind tells me.

Re: The Universe Knows Right from Wrong

#12
Right off the bat it fails epicly in its comparison of Gandhi to Epstein as bastions of good and evil, as apparently the author is completely unaware of Gandhi’s sleeping with children? What a horrible choice for the side of good, given Epstein’s horrendous misdeeds.

What a horribly written horribly reasoned article. Very frustrating to read.

> But if Reality is itself a very general form of consciousness, and my consciousness is a specific form of that general form of consciousness, it follows that Reality is present within my consciousness.

No it doesn’t follow. You are fully capable of experiencing things that are not reality. That’s just poor reasoning.

I work hard to keep my tone online positive but this article is simply religion presenting itself as science, and it enrages me.

Re: The Universe Knows Right from Wrong

#13
post #2

> It might be nice to think that the universe has an inherent moral direction, but do we have any evidence that it does? And if we lack good evidence for these claims, surely respect for Occam’s razor ought to stop us from accepting them? This objection, though, is jam-packed with value-claims: It claims what we “ought” to believe and references “good” evidence. The very challenge pre-supposes the reality of value. S…

Yes, this is where he finally lost me.

Re: The Universe Knows Right from Wrong

#14
"(...) consciousness pervades the universe and is a fundamental feature of it (...)". I'm not sure if it means much. It's like saying that spheres prevade universe. Great, now what? Is cat hunting little bird good or bad? Depends who you ask. Consciousness and forms of life in general are recursions where emergent memory and prediction qualifies it on the wide spectrum of sophistication. Natural selection creates unhappy "recursions" from the moment when one eats the other and discovers it gives great energy boost. Feeling pain/pleasure is emergent feature shaped by natural selection. But there is nothing fundamental about it that says good predictors must have it. Evaluating options on more global scale move you closer to more global rights/wrongs, that's all.

Re: The Universe Knows Right from Wrong

#15
Maybe im missing it, but the argument seems to be morality is objective because everyone thinks it is. How is that not begging the question?

Then there are a bunch of pithy lines, which the author seems to treat as obvious in context revelations, but to me seem to utterly lack evidence/argument.

> "No matter how the universe had turned out, two plus two would equal four and it would have been wrong to torture people for fun."

Umm why? That seems non obvious to me.

>"Pleasure is good and suffering is bad because Reality is essentially directed toward the former and away from the latter"

Is it though? And that's ignoring the whole question of wtf does it even mean for reality to be directed in some direction.

> "My proposal is that the inherently directed nature of Reality entails that it’s objectively good for Reality when it manifests as pleasure and objectively bad for Reality when it manifests as pain."

Umm ok.

>"It is broadly agreed that (all things being equal) pleasure is good and pain is bad..."

Isn't the definition of pleasure, being good. Seems kind of circular - everyone agrees feeling good is good and feeling bad is bad.

>"The reality of objective value is a non-negotiable data-point and we are entitled to make whatever postulations are required to account for it."

'kay then.

Re: The Universe Knows Right from Wrong

#16
post #3

> But the problem for .. anyone who tries to ground moral truth in the natural world, is that moral truths, like mathematical truths, are necessarily true, which means that it’s impossible for them to be false. What a bizarre argument. Mathematical truths are defined to be true -- entirely the opposite of what the author is trying to claim about moral truths, so this is about as absurd a comparison as one could make.…

> Mathematical truths are defined to be true Perhaps a nitpick, but: axioms are defined to be true. Mathematics, roughly speaking, is the business of exploring the consequences of chosen sets of axioms. Sometimes published mathematical theorems turn out to be wrong.

Do you think? I'd say that axioms were just taken; there's no commitment to their truth (since there is no need for it, and mathematics likes economy).

Re: The Universe Knows Right from Wrong

#17
post #11

Here is my take: All knowledge is ultimately based on assumptions, and those assumptions ultimately hang in thin air. We rely on our senses to observe the world around us, and we rely on our mental faculties to interpenetrate what we observe. But we have no way of knowing if our senses, and our mental faculties, can be trusted, if they are accurate to some objective reality. It might very well be that what we take in…

Consider that even murder isn't universally considered bad. Examples include wars, self defense, proponents of the death penalty, the sentinelese, etc. Debates can get particularly heated when one gets into things like abortion and ethical dilemmas.

As for the dichotomy of logical verification given our meat-based fallible physical medium, I'm reminded of Godel's incompleteness theory, i.e. that it is possible for a set of axioms to be internally consistent (e.g. basic algebra), yet we can construct a meta set of axioms to demonstrate that it is impossible to mathematically prove every truth therein.

Re: The Universe Knows Right from Wrong

#18
post #17
post #11

Here is my take: All knowledge is ultimately based on assumptions, and those assumptions ultimately hang in thin air. We rely on our senses to observe the world around us, and we rely on our mental faculties to interpenetrate what we observe. But we have no way of knowing if our senses, and our mental faculties, can be trusted, if they are accurate to some objective reality. It might very well be that what we take in…

Consider that even murder isn't universally considered bad. Examples include wars, self defense, proponents of the death penalty, the sentinelese, etc. Debates can get particularly heated when one gets into things like abortion and ethical dilemmas. As for the dichotomy of logical verification given our meat-based fallible physical medium, I'm reminded of Godel's incompleteness theory, i.e. that it is possible for a…

True enough, but even so, in these examples you mentioned, war, self defense, death penalty, people struggle a lot with being mentally harmed by taking lives. I read somewhere that Nazi Germany moved to gassing those they persecuted rather than simply killing them by firing squad because the firing squads couldn't handle it day in and day out. The majority of mankind abhors murder, and has to invent elaborate methods and rules to avoid facing the brute reality of it, even when they say that it's good.

My point is just that to me, and my society as a whole, murder is seen as something bad, as a simple and obvious fact, a safe assumption. If somebody wants to tell me that assumption is wrong and should be removed, I want to see what sort of stuff their assumptions are built out of to justify such confidence.

Re: The Universe Knows Right from Wrong

#19
Arguemnt by analogy is very powerful and entirely fallacious.” —Mr Dawson, my teacher of Theory of Knowledge (epistemology and critical thinking), circa 1997

So... there is this guy, who has an opinion... okay... and?

Re: The Universe Knows Right from Wrong

#20
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mathematical truths are defined to be true Perhaps a nitpick, but: axioms are defined to be true. Mathematics, roughly speaking, is the business of exploring the consequences of chosen sets of axioms. Sometimes published mathematical theorems turn out to be wrong.

Do you think? I'd say that axioms were just taken; there's no commitment to their truth (since there is no need for it, and mathematics likes economy).

Axiom are just taken but over time we picked the most useful ones. This is why they map well to the physical world.

The baffling thing is how few and simple axioms we need for them to be useful.

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