Ex-Google boss Eric Schmidt: US 'dropped the ball' on innovation • Hacker News Board

Re: Ex-Google boss Eric Schmidt: US 'dropped the ball' on innovation

#141

Post by paganel » Sun, Sep 13, 2020, 6:31 AM UTC

fiblye wrote: post #47

didibus wrote: post #19

> "America does not have enough people with those skills." Seriously, I feel the US has a big education problem, with part of it being cultural I think. Seems being educated, knowledgeable, having expertise, learning about science and technology, medicine and law, just isn't valued anymore, in fact it's almost being denigrated and shamed. What I see instead is people pushing for anti-intellectualism and valuing the "…

> in fact it's almost being denigrated and shamed. "Almost" really isn't necessary there anymore. There's a growing group that believes virtually all doctors, scientists, and professionals within certain fields are "in on it" and part of some big conspiracy to do some vague, undefined thing that'll take down America and corrupt their children. These used to just be a fringe group. Now it feels like about half the peo…

> doctors, scientists, and professionals within certain fields are "in on it" and part of some big conspiracy to do some vague, undefined thing that'll take down America and corrupt their children.

From my point of view I think that is a healthy reaction against technocracy, and it's not US-specific. Those "doctors, scientists, and professionals within certain fields" can't expect to take the decisions that influence the life of millions each and every day, with almost no over-sight, and then complain when people question those decisions.

"But science says that we should do that and that!" is not a valid enough reason anymore, because science has "said" lots of things that have been proved to be very bad to some parts of the populace (see eugenics, which has been demoted to "non-science" after the fact so that those technocrats that had tried to implement it could wash their hands off of it).

Re: Ex-Google boss Eric Schmidt: US 'dropped the ball' on innovation

#142

Post by TheSpiceIsLife » Sun, Sep 13, 2020, 6:34 AM UTC

reducesuffering wrote: post #103

unishark wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “Kids these days” have their eyes wide open. Just a few decades ago you used to have access to an affordable college education with good jobs on graduation. With a modest level of saving you’d have enough for the deposit on a house within a few years. Except if those kids would get degrees in the right areas (like the thread is complaining they aren't), they would absolutely be able to get excellent jobs upon gradu…

Further, GP notes > "they must take on a punishingly expensive college education or they’ll never amount to anything." Except that high school graduates have the option to do 2 years of community college (~5k) and 2 years at a state school (~13k). Generally possible to most while living at home for no additional rent. CS jobs are in high supply and 100k+ out of college. The college cost would be paid off in a year. T…

> 100k+ out of college

Isn't this only true in a few select cities?

I don't think the average programmer is getting paid that (the AU equivalent) much here in Australia outside of maybe some companies in Melbourne and Sydney and maybe Adelaide.

Re: Ex-Google boss Eric Schmidt: US 'dropped the ball' on innovation

#143

Post by turndown » Sun, Sep 13, 2020, 6:35 AM UTC

paganel wrote: post #141

fiblye wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in fact it's almost being denigrated and shamed. "Almost" really isn't necessary there anymore. There's a growing group that believes virtually all doctors, scientists, and professionals within certain fields are "in on it" and part of some big conspiracy to do some vague, undefined thing that'll take down America and corrupt their children. These used to just be a fringe group. Now it feels like about half the peo…

> doctors, scientists, and professionals within certain fields are "in on it" and part of some big conspiracy to do some vague, undefined thing that'll take down America and corrupt their children. From my point of view I think that is a healthy reaction against technocracy, and it's not US-specific. Those "doctors, scientists, and professionals within certain fields" can't expect to take the decisions that influence…

I definitely agree with your central point that anyone can use any ideology to endorse their own personal beliefs, but it also has to be said that giving the same weight to the feelings of a person versus actual fact, spoken by an expert, is the literal degradation of our society.

Re: Ex-Google boss Eric Schmidt: US 'dropped the ball' on innovation

#144

Post by cycrutchfield » Sun, Sep 13, 2020, 6:36 AM UTC

PeterStuer wrote: post #135

akiselev wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a self fulfilling prophecy that's been ongoing since the 80s. An entire political party's ideology is based on the idea that government doesn't work and when in power they set out to prove it by making government dysfunctional by defunding agencies and confusing their mandates. That same party politicized clean air regulations, climate change, and wearing masks . This has crippled expertise because if one side c…

From a non-US perspective, you described the dominant ideology of both your political parties. I'm not saying they are 'the same', but they both are extreme neoliberale market proponents. They also both embrace a tight intertwined government and enterprise regimen to the point where it becomes very difficult to tell who owns who, or whether it is just one organisation.

Sorry, no, that is not the dominant ideology of both parties. You didn’t say “both sides are the same” but you are equating neoliberalism with anti-science. Go bang that “neoliberals bad” drum somewhere else.

Re: Ex-Google boss Eric Schmidt: US 'dropped the ball' on innovation

#145

Post by TheSpiceIsLife » Sun, Sep 13, 2020, 6:39 AM UTC

searchableguy wrote: post #129

Shivetya wrote: post #9

If you follow the article around you realize this isn't about money invested but simply based on how many scientific articles are being published [0] and not dollars invested even though they toss in one Chinese based companies number. Personally I do not find article count a good number to base the claim on. Percentage of GPD might not be a good reference either but then again I am not 100% sure a dollar for dollar…

There was also this article linked about federal decrease in R&D spending: https://itif.org/publications/2018/12/14/dwindling-federal-s... Can someone link me historical total R&D spending data for US? I found https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R44307.pdf which states: > The United States became a global leader in R&D in the 20th century, funding as much as 69% of annual global R&D in the period following World War II. 1 F…

> in the period following World War II.

That'd likely tbe because most the rest of the developed world had been reduced to rubble.

27% is still a hugely outsized slice of the pie.

Re: Ex-Google boss Eric Schmidt: US 'dropped the ball' on innovation

#146

Post by missedthecue » Sun, Sep 13, 2020, 6:40 AM UTC

sorval wrote: post #114

koolba wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cities and States with the worst public education systems and the highest crime rates have been run by one party, the Democrats, for 50+ years. Some 100+! They can and have continued to raise taxes and subsequently squander any money they collect. Any attempt to break that stranglehold, such as changing teachers union hiring practices or allowing for charter schools, is met with total resistance. You’re right tha…

Thats just utterly untrue and the reverse of whats actually true. "states that were coded as blue based upon results from the 2004 presidential election were significantly higher in education funding than were states coded as red. Students in blue states scored significantly higher on outcome measures of math and reading in grades four and eight than did students in red states." https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED5…

Is there any correlation at all between increased school funding and better educational outcomes? For instance, Utah spends $5k per student per year while Baltimore spends $25k per student per year. Utahan children have higher graduation rates, better GPAs, and better standardized test scores. It's the same across the US from NYC to LA.

I'm growing more and more skeptical that throwing more and more money into the furnace that is the US education system is suddenly going to produce better outcomes. How much more must Baltimore spend? $30k a student? $50k a student? $100k a student? Where's the magic number?

Re: Ex-Google boss Eric Schmidt: US 'dropped the ball' on innovation

#147

Post by infogulch » Sun, Sep 13, 2020, 6:40 AM UTC

nikkwong wrote: post #100

Qwertious wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't blame the government here, but the media. Their job is literally to represent experts and their true image to the general public - as in, they're supposed to research and tell us whether the expert seems credible, and if the government is lying about experts (or anything else) it's the media's job to call them out on it.

I think you are giving far too much credit to other members of our species. Members of the media are clearly as fallible as the dysfunctional politicians they are covering. CNN and other left-of-center media organizations would do themselves a favor by at least holding their tongue on areas where they are too explicitly demonstrating their bias. The way their pundits make ad hominem remarks against the president ever…

Interesting analogy with pornography. Just replace 'horny' with 'angry' as the primary driving emotion and political news matches porn pretty well. Potentially exciting but ultimately vacuous. Harmless in theory, but causes harm in practice by distracting / diverting energy and action away from the real thing. Is sustained through novelty, which encourages producing extremes.

So that means the US has a big (political) porn addiction problem. Hey, it kinda works.

Re: Ex-Google boss Eric Schmidt: US 'dropped the ball' on innovation

#148

Post by RestlessMind » Sun, Sep 13, 2020, 6:42 AM UTC

fiblye wrote: post #47

didibus wrote: post #19

> "America does not have enough people with those skills." Seriously, I feel the US has a big education problem, with part of it being cultural I think. Seems being educated, knowledgeable, having expertise, learning about science and technology, medicine and law, just isn't valued anymore, in fact it's almost being denigrated and shamed. What I see instead is people pushing for anti-intellectualism and valuing the "…

> in fact it's almost being denigrated and shamed. "Almost" really isn't necessary there anymore. There's a growing group that believes virtually all doctors, scientists, and professionals within certain fields are "in on it" and part of some big conspiracy to do some vague, undefined thing that'll take down America and corrupt their children. These used to just be a fringe group. Now it feels like about half the peo…

> There's a growing group that believes ... certain fields are "in on it" ... some big conspiracy to do some vague, undefined thing

I mean, I won't fault anyone if they are jaded and distrust everything the "experts" have to say these days. Look at what we witnessed in the last 20 or so years:

1. Iraq war, where our intelligence agencies were sure about WMDs and the senate voted 97-0 to wage a war that ended up wasting thousands of American lives, trillions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives along with destabilizing the entire region.

2. Financial crisis, where the so-called masters of the Universe from Wall St crashed the entire economy and the "maestro" Greenspan denied the existence of a housing bubble in 2005.

3. Recent revelations that scientific studies about the ill effects of sugar were suppressed in 60's / 70's and instead sugar lobby spent money on deflecting blame to fat.

4. Snowden revelations.

5. Details uncovered about the Harvard admissions process which show how the elites are favored via legacy or obscure sports admissions.

6. TPP, especially the way it was conducted where the elected representatives didn't have any access to the details of the negotiations, while the lobbyists from the key industries had full access.

You keep reading that kind of stuff and you start discounting "elite opinions" more and more.

Re: Ex-Google boss Eric Schmidt: US 'dropped the ball' on innovation

#149

Post by cycrutchfield » Sun, Sep 13, 2020, 6:42 AM UTC

nikkwong wrote: post #100

Qwertious wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't blame the government here, but the media. Their job is literally to represent experts and their true image to the general public - as in, they're supposed to research and tell us whether the expert seems credible, and if the government is lying about experts (or anything else) it's the media's job to call them out on it.

I think you are giving far too much credit to other members of our species. Members of the media are clearly as fallible as the dysfunctional politicians they are covering. CNN and other left-of-center media organizations would do themselves a favor by at least holding their tongue on areas where they are too explicitly demonstrating their bias. The way their pundits make ad hominem remarks against the president ever…

Fox News has been doing this literally for decades, to the point where they have zero journalistic credibility anymore. CNN is rather tame by comparison.

Re: Ex-Google boss Eric Schmidt: US 'dropped the ball' on innovation

#150

Post by tomcam » Sun, Sep 13, 2020, 6:45 AM UTC

A reminder that Google's revenues come almost completely from ad technology that they bought (from Doubleclick, IIRC). Google has stuck its fingers into hundreds of pies since then, to its credit, and has found that innovation is difficult, unpredictable, and expensive.