Live data from Hacker News

Makani source code released

github.com

11–20 of 127 posts

Re: Makani source code released

#11

It's cool that they open sourced this, but as someone who worked at a kite power company (a much smaller company with a much smaller kite) I'm not sure much here will be transferable to other companies. Makani was making a huge 2000 lb "kite" turbine. That requires the kind of money that Google could back them with - and since Google isn't funding this anymore I just don't see where this can go as none of the remaini…

Opening it up makes it available to people who might look at it and get an idea. Sometimes the thing has to be available before someone figures out what to do with it.

Re: Makani source code released

#13
post #8

Why this failed? I would love to learn more if anyone has more insider knowledge

The tether replaces one set of problems with a different set of problems. Some of the new problems had promising solutions, but others were more marginal.

1) Land use. The small props are loud, and the setbacks relative to populated areas are pretty high for tether and crash safety. Solution: offshore. Now you have two problems :)

2) The tether's weight is a factor. Its hard to build in much margin on this component before it gets too heavy to fly. What happens if a gust temporarily reduces tension on the tether? Can it handle a shock load from the kite hits the end again if it comes off its sphere? How many conductors can you run down the tether? IIRC, they were running DC+ and DC-... with no ground. Now, what exactly happens during lightning strike? At the time they believed that they were just barely on the "feasible" side for this component on a feasible-infeasible axis, but it was pretty darned close.

3) The power system was complex. Tether weight biases you strongly towards a medium voltage power system (a few kV pole-to-pole) to cut down on the weight of the conductors. However, the size of the turbine was smaller than any medium voltage application I had ever heard of. Maybe the ground side could be COTS, but the flight side almost certainly couldn't. So now you are also in the business of building bespoke medium-voltage switching power converters and motor/generators. There's nothing fundamentally infeasable about this, its just a bunch of hard work that detracts somewhat from the main mission. A startup would much rather buy this tech, but they were forced to build it instead.

I mention the power system explicitly because that's particularly in my bailiwick, but I think it was really a microcosm of the project as a whole. They were building an airplane for the purpose of energy production. So they had to solve all of the problems that an airplane company has to solve. Also, since electricity is so cheap, you can't afford to pay human operators for all of the generators, so you also must solve many of the problems that an autonomous airplane company has to solve. In salty air to boot.

Overall, there's just a staggering amount of NRE that must be spent chasing a market that is already commoditized. 50 USD/MW-hr is a typical benchmark for wholesale electricity. Meanwhile, solar panels are iterating and getting cheaper and traditional wind turbines are iterating and getting cheaper. Eventually, the bean-counters start to notice.

There's an alternative explanation: Makani (and Wing, and Titan, and the robotics initiative, and other things) were initiated when Larry was still young and excited about the technology itself. We used to morbidly joke that Ruth Porat (hired CFO) was going around the company asking questions like, "Airplanes, Larry? Really?" (taps clipboard, raises eyebrow). Eventually the long years of almost-but-not-quite-success wore them down past the point of endurance, and the projects started dying off when the leadership got bored of them.

IMO, both explanations are likely to be true.

Re: Makani source code released

#14
post #11

It's cool that they open sourced this, but as someone who worked at a kite power company (a much smaller company with a much smaller kite) I'm not sure much here will be transferable to other companies. Makani was making a huge 2000 lb "kite" turbine. That requires the kind of money that Google could back them with - and since Google isn't funding this anymore I just don't see where this can go as none of the remaini…

Opening it up makes it available to people who might look at it and get an idea. Sometimes the thing has to be available before someone figures out what to do with it.

Oh sure, I completely understand that. The point I was trying to make was that all of this flight control & simulation software is very specific to the characteristics of their particular kite. I'm not aware of anyone else in the industry making a kite that large and heavy - most of these companies are operating on a shoestring budget. Sure, it's possible that maybe some general ideas could be obtained from their autonomous control software - but they would need to be heavily adapted to a different kite with different flight characteristics.

We were starting to think about using reinforcement learning to develop an autonomous controller for our kite. That would have involved recording lots of real-world in-flight data for our particular kite which we were starting to do. Similar flight data for a different kite wouldn't have done us much good when it came to training as each kite has very different flight characteristics.

Re: Makani source code released

#16

It's cool that they open sourced this, but as someone who worked at a kite power company (a much smaller company with a much smaller kite) I'm not sure much here will be transferable to other companies. Makani was making a huge 2000 lb "kite" turbine. That requires the kind of money that Google could back them with - and since Google isn't funding this anymore I just don't see where this can go as none of the remaini…

I don't think the goal here is to help other kite power companies. If google thought there was still something there they'd still be funding the project in all likelihood. But who knows what this might teach someone trying to move into a related space? Also it's just freaking cool that this stuff is available.

It was very much a blue-sky project. A very highly ambitious one. Other kite power companies are generally taking much more affordable routes by necessity.

Re: Makani source code released

#17

I guess this means that this project is dead or not viable for some reason, and they're being nice and releasing their work. Good job Google! As an aside, it should be law to release any firmware, code, and backend services code for any device that is no longer fully supported by the manufacturer. Let other people play with your dead things and reduce the barrier for new innovation on top of them.

I think the main obstacle is these things often contain licensed code the company does not have permission to open source.

Re: Makani source code released

#18
post #8

Why this failed? I would love to learn more if anyone has more insider knowledge

The tether replaces one set of problems with a different set of problems. Some of the new problems had promising solutions, but others were more marginal. 1) Land use. The small props are loud, and the setbacks relative to populated areas are pretty high for tether and crash safety. Solution: offshore. Now you have two problems :) 2) The tether's weight is a factor. Its hard to build in much margin on this component…

Having worked in the industry a bit, yes, likely both are true. There are very complex engineering problems to solve and Makani was taking one of the more complicated approaches to the problem. Some other kite power companies (including the one I worked at) have the generator on the ground and use an ascending figure 8 pattern of flight to pull the tether thus generating power (at the top of the cycle the kite goes into a sort of controlled stall to lose altitude, the tether is rewound and the cycle continues) - that approach certainly has issues as well.

I often think that maybe most of us were taking a much more complicated approach than is actually needed. Perhaps (thinking out loud) something much simpler like a soft kite with a sort of trap-door which closes as it ascends and opens to let it fall to a lower altitude would be a much simpler approach - essentially a bag kite with an end that can be opened and closed - obviously it would be smaller scale, but most of the kite power companies are working at a much smaller scale than Makani was.

Re: Makani source code released

#19

It's cool that they open sourced this, but as someone who worked at a kite power company (a much smaller company with a much smaller kite) I'm not sure much here will be transferable to other companies. Makani was making a huge 2000 lb "kite" turbine. That requires the kind of money that Google could back them with - and since Google isn't funding this anymore I just don't see where this can go as none of the remaini…

Does code released have to have commercial applicability to other organizations to be relevant?

It seems like a post-mortem code dump.

Post reply on HN