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Why do so many people want us back in the office?

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Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#301

Post by ahupp »

I worked remote for 3 years. It was great at first (10ft commute, woo!), but I wouldn't choose to do it long-term. All those relationships I'd made with co-workers slowly withered as the team changed, and by the end we just didn't work as cohesively together. It wasn't a failure per se, we still shipped software, it was just clearly a lot less effective (both for me career-wise, and for the team as a whole). So I would strongly prefer a job that's in-person at least a few days every week.

Some caveats: this was before video conferencing, slack or FB Workplace so maybe things are better now. And, it might be different when everyone is remote so YMMV.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#302

Post by ghaff »

Aeolun wrote: post #290
ghaff wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really, there are only 2 costs that matter. On the one side you have the commute--both in time and money. On the other side is whether the place you'd be living in otherwise is suitable for long-term WFH or if you have to spend more money for another bedroom or whatever. So, if you already have a dedicated office in an exurban house (as I do), not commuting--which I rarely did anyway--is a cost savings. As someone wh…

But I do not have an extra office in a dedicated bedroom. I live in central Tokyo. The delta in house price for ‘extra bedroom’ in the place I live is around $250,000. There is just no way my company is going to even consider reimbursing me for that.

That was my point. If you live in a central part of a major city because it's convenient for work and you want to live there, having to WFH indefinitely is probably going to be costly compared to being able to easily go into an office (unless your company will pay for a co-working space). You're right that they won't pay for a larger apartment.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#303

Post by dathinab »

ghaff wrote: post #209
tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Commute time is a big thing here. People who have a 2 hour (one way) commute from hell from their massive house are super happy about this situation (shocking, I know). People who live in a small studio apartment 10 minutes from the office see it differently. What I expect this to result in is employers increasingly forcing people to WFH (either outright, or by making the offices horribly unattractive through hot-des…

Really, there are only 2 costs that matter. On the one side you have the commute--both in time and money. On the other side is whether the place you'd be living in otherwise is suitable for long-term WFH or if you have to spend more money for another bedroom or whatever. So, if you already have a dedicated office in an exurban house (as I do), not commuting--which I rarely did anyway--is a cost savings. As someone wh…

There is also a social and mental cost.

For example for some one where anxiety acts in a way which hinders him to proper handle thinks like making food or cleaning having a clean office with a Mensa giving out reasonable good food for a reasonable price is a massive difference. It can make the difference between overcoming it and complexity succumbing to it to a degree where you at some point end up homeless on the streets....

Sure just one example. But you can make many such examples. Often less extreme.

But however I look at it it always boils down to people being good of (housing, mental health, social net and high sallery (==more affordable office equipment)) profiting from it but people which are not (small dark apartment, mental health problems, abusive partners, social isolation, not much money) paying the price for it. And sure in the praxis you will find anything in-between.

> allready have a dedicated office in an exurban house

In my experience (Germany/Berlin) this normally only applies for people which earn above average and even then it not so common for people only earning slightly above average. The best/most common thing you find with people earning slightly above average is a room which is intended for children but they either don't yet have any or they already moved out so it was turned into a office room.

Also most office at home room I have seen where just suitable for one person, so if both partner need to do home offices it gets space-wise tight.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#304

Post by ck425 »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #276
Retric wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those minor costs can still add up. Depending on your setup and location you could easily be spending 30+c/h on electricity when working from home. Extra cooling, lighting, possibly multiple PC’s etc. At ~2,000 hours a year you’re talking an extra ~600$/per year after tax. On the other hand it’s also much cheaper to cook at home. PS: My preference is to live close enough to walk to the office, but that doesn’t really…

I don’t think utilities are expensive enough to compare to the explicit costs of commuting by car (fuel, wear and tear, insurance) and the implicit costs of commuting (increased morbidity/mortality risk from driving, opportunity cost of time needed to be allocated to commuting). Especially if the house isn’t completely empty when you’re at work.

Again this heavily depends on your situation.

I live a 20 min walk from my office. I have £0 commuting costs.

On the other hand I live in an old city with little new built housing. My flat is over 100 years old with massive ceilings, electric heating and no way to way to improve the insulation. Heating it just in the evenings for 5 hours costs about £50 a month, heating it while I work will likely cost £70-100 extra in top.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#306

Post by maest »

edoceo wrote: post #266
dkdk8283 wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds miserable. What did you do for periods of deep work?

My team has a similar tool. So, everyone is in the room, muted and no-volume. So, if someone needs my attention they can send a bell but when my audio is off its only a visual bell, so it won't interrupt the deep work. And one can always exit the channel if needed - which is shown in status, so folks know your DND or not available. But, one can monitor the channel so it behaves like a water cooler too. And up-scales…

Is this an in-house tool?

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#308

Post by josephg »

tomp wrote: post #131
x87678r wrote: post #124

My commute is 20 minutes on an uncrowded ferry, and my home office is a tiny desk in my daughter's bedroom while she works on the other side on school stuff. My colleague has a massive house with a pool tennis court and so much space he has literally 3 never-used bedrooms. His wife looks after kids who are at school most of the day again. His commute is 2 hours each way. People are talking home vs office people are c…

So? Ideally nobody would force you to stay at home, just like nobody would force your colleague to go to the office. Different people have different preferences, why not (try to) satisfy them all?

One of the problems of remote work is that it’s kind of an all or nothing thing for your team. If some people are in the office and some people work from home, inevitably (in my experience) a lot of small decisions get made in the office without consulting the remote workers. And that creates a divide - the people in the office end up with more power and authority than the remote folks.

Some teams fight this with some strict rules - eg insisting conversations between people sitting next to each other happen over slack. But I think it will usually work better in the long run if either everyone is in the office or basically everyone is remote.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#309

Post by dathinab »

jstanley wrote: post #294
Aeolun wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I do not have an extra office in a dedicated bedroom. I live in central Tokyo. The delta in house price for ‘extra bedroom’ in the place I live is around $250,000. There is just no way my company is going to even consider reimbursing me for that.

But if you're WFH, you don't need to live in central Tokyo, you can live anywhere. You'd probably save money by gaining an extra bedroom and moving out of central Tokyo, no?

Anywhere where you:

- Have reasonable fast internet.

- (Affordable) Hospitals/Police/Firewatch in reasonable distance

- Are not to far away from the companies office as you likely still have to go to the office from time to time.

EDIT: Most people don't live in Tokyo or cities with similar expensive housings. The cost of moving away from cities is often much bigger then "just" longer transit times from home to work.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#310

Post by ghaff »

VectorLock wrote: post #257
tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Commute time is a big thing here. People who have a 2 hour (one way) commute from hell from their massive house are super happy about this situation (shocking, I know). People who live in a small studio apartment 10 minutes from the office see it differently. What I expect this to result in is employers increasingly forcing people to WFH (either outright, or by making the offices horribly unattractive through hot-des…

I think both big house 2 hours away and small studio 10 minutes away would both be happy about WFH. This means small studio 10 minutes away can move out of his small studio that he lives in only because its 10 minutes away. EDIT: Not to say that studio 10 minutes from work might enjoy other aspects of his living situation but if his main constraint of "must be 10 minutes from work" is lifted, that gives him much more…

The implicit assumption is that small studio 10 minutes away wants to work in a city center and therefore "making" them move to bigger digs somewhere further out is a downgrade. Which may or may not be true.
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