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Why do so many people want us back in the office?

paulitaylor.com

281–290 of 624 posts

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was forced to WFH, same as most of my colleagues. Most who keep going to work don't really have much choice (apart from resigning for which ain't the best time now). What are you talking about?

> Ideally You missed a key word in the parent post. _Ideally_ people wouldn't be forced into multiple hour long commutes either, but that has been the reality for many before this year.

Comparing being "forced" to commute hours (in a house that you chose to live in when you took the job) is a bit disingenuous to being actually forced by a pandemic to not go into an office.

Im happy for all the people that can live happily hours outside of urban areas but the insistence that remote work is uniformly better for all people is just so exhausting. I for one, will be glad when it ends and will continue to prioritize companies that keep most of their work force in office; bringing work into my living space has been terrible for my mental health (anecdotally this sentiment has been shared among other single young people i know in the city).

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#282
post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those minor costs can still add up. Depending on your setup and location you could easily be spending 30+c/h on electricity when working from home. Extra cooling, lighting, possibly multiple PC’s etc. At ~2,000 hours a year you’re talking an extra ~600$/per year after tax. On the other hand it’s also much cheaper to cook at home. PS: My preference is to live close enough to walk to the office, but that doesn’t really…

I don’t think utilities are expensive enough to compare to the explicit costs of commuting by car (fuel, wear and tear, insurance) and the implicit costs of commuting (increased morbidity/mortality risk from driving, opportunity cost of time needed to be allocated to commuting). Especially if the house isn’t completely empty when you’re at work.

Not to mention the infrastructure / tax costs! New interstate lanes to sate population growth don't build themselves.

The more regular commuters we can take off the road, the better.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A couple years ago, I had to move bare metal servers to my home to continue my job working at a VR technology startup, who had just decided to forgo their offices. I took on an extra $150-$200 in power expenses per month, and it was absolutely treacherous trying to get reimbursed for this. The company never considered the costs they were funneling into the employees - apparently - until people started to complain. I…

> I took on an extra $150-$200 in power expenses per month, and it was absolutely treacherous trying to get reimbursed for this Well, fuck that... if it's company hardware and there's no reimbursement, power gets cut to that rack at 5PM local time.

Just wire it into a light switch. If the switch gets flipped... shame.

"I don't know what to do. I guess if you wanted to send an electrician out to install a new circuit with its own meter, things might be more reliable."

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#284
post #250
post #223

When I was building back end software, I could and did work from anywhere. I enjoyed working in the same space with my team, but not all day and not every day. And it wasn't necessary except maybe once or twice per quarter. Now I work on firmware, and I have about $6000 of test equipment that is required to do my job, as well as multiple fragile circuit boards, some that I'm afraid to touch because some of the rework…

You could do what we did in some distributed teams at Google: just have a permanent "call" going with everyone normally muted. When someone would like to receive attention, they unmute and speak. It's not as good as walking up to someone's desk, but it's not as bad as having to schedule a call in advance.

That sounds worse in all possible ways than just having a messenger service like Slack but I suppose different teams work in different ways.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#285
post #116

I don't care about "us" going back to the office but I definitely want to go back to the office and I am far from alone in this.

I'm with you on that one. I actually want to go back to the office. I don't have a dedicated workspace at home, and I'm definitely feeling it. The line between working from home, and living at work, is getting very blurry. Our living room has become an office, our kitchen has become the other office. The bedroom is now the only space sacrosanct. It's not so much that I miss the office, but I certainly miss "going to…

This is the big thing for me. I already pay more than is reasonable for a 550 sq.ft. apartment which obviously doesn't have a separate office. To get a 2 bedroom place I would have to double my rent to get a place that is even close to where my current apartment is.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#286
post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those minor costs can still add up. Depending on your setup and location you could easily be spending 30+c/h on electricity when working from home. Extra cooling, lighting, possibly multiple PC’s etc. At ~2,000 hours a year you’re talking an extra ~600$/per year after tax. On the other hand it’s also much cheaper to cook at home. PS: My preference is to live close enough to walk to the office, but that doesn’t really…

A couple years ago, I had to move bare metal servers to my home to continue my job working at a VR technology startup, who had just decided to forgo their offices. I took on an extra $150-$200 in power expenses per month, and it was absolutely treacherous trying to get reimbursed for this. The company never considered the costs they were funneling into the employees - apparently - until people started to complain. I…

Yeah I live in a country that literally worships efficiency and cost cutting. Fancy offices have been extinct for a long time. Thanks to technology people can work anywhere and they're expected to.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#287
I live in a studio apartment with high rent, with a half mile walk from my office. I did this on purpose so I wouldn’t have to commute. Now I am spending high rent for a small space. My company keeps stating that we will have to return to the office in some unknown “near future”, otherwise I would plan on going full WFH and relocating to a larger home somewhere cheaper and more rural. But I’m stuck.

I also miss my dedicated workspace, and I miss being able to separate work and home life easily by going no contact after 5PM without management thinking that means I am a bad employee.

But most of all, I miss being able to let my bosses "micromanage" me in a way that didn't disrupt me. “Office Politics” has changed at my company in a way that is taking up a lot more of my productive time than it used to, and I hate it.

Before the Great WFH of 2020, my boss would walk by my cubicle or speak to me in person regularly. Short conversations, didn't ever bother me, and allowed me to focus on work. Made him feel busy and made him feel I was busy. Ultimately I was able to spend less time "appearing busy" and more on actually getting work done.

Since management at my company doesn't know how to actually track real work output, they have always used proxies like "how long does this person stay at the office?", "Are they still in their cubicle when I am leaving?", "When I walk by their cubicle do they have their IDE open doing 'coding stuff'" etc. etc.

I’ve always been decently performant at code production. So all I had to do was stay on my coding tasks for a few hours each day, have an IDE always open on at least one of my monitors and wait til exactly 5:01 PM every day before I left as that was when my boss went home. I ended up getting stuff done quick, got to avoid most meetings, and could screw around the rest of the day if I wanted. Personal projects, internet surfing, etc.

Great reviews from management. I would prefer an actual meritocratic standard based on actual work done, but that really has never been the case at any of the companies I have ever worked at so far in my career as a software engineer, so I’m used to it at this point.

But now that we are all WFH, they really don't seem to know what to do. They don't know how much work anyone is, or isn't doing, instead daily standups have changed from 10 minute short succinct updates to “how aggressively and for how long can you technobabble bullshit about your coding tasks you did yesterday” turning these stand ups into at least an hour or more, and now I have to also technobabble bullshit or management will think I’m slacking.

Even more so than before, they now seem to think pointless emails and multi-hour zoom meetings are the true marker of productivity. I hate this. I don't want to have to spend hours per day making up bullshit technobabble emails and sitting in on multi-hour long zoom meetings talking about unrelated boring bullshit. I just want to be able to focus on getting my coding tasks done for the day. Some of the lowest performers on my team love it though, because they are great at meetings, scheduling meetings, and making themselves feel important with pointless technical presentations during these meetings. Not to mention we are expected to have our webcams on at all times during these meetings, so I can’t even “pretend” to be present while I go make myself tea or something.

The barrier to entry for meetings has lowered. Before, scheduling a meeting in the office room down the hall and giving a presentation on why we all should add “bureaucratic coding standard addition xyz” was both too scary and too much work. Now, its “why not, management will think I am showing leadership skills!”.

Thanks guys, I love more poorly managed bureaucracy. Test driven development might be good if someone actually managed it and maintained standard during code reviews, but now everyone just creates shitty unit tests to meet the 70% code coverage requirement we are told to meet because the literal lowest performer on my team scheduled multi hour meetings with management on why we should all follow tde and convinced them it was a good idea.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#288
post #75
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. I love living in the city. I like the restaurants, shops, bars, etc. I also like having people around, especially during the summers.

That's fair enough, but the choice then is on you.

The thing is, you can get all of what they say they want in any large city in the world much cheaper than large cities in the US if one does their research… my 3br apartment with a home office in Jakarta is still cheaper than the 1B in in any city in US, or in my personal experience, compared to the 3br apt I split with two other grown men in Boston 5 years ago when I first started working remotely (and way nicer and more amenities too).

And now, way more companies open to hiring remote workers!

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#289
I think it's a lot more complicated than just "from home" or "in the office". There are a lot of different home situations, many different types of commutes, and then there is the specific software and hardware you use for communication and how you configure it.

For example, take something like presence. The boss wants to know if you are working. With software, there are ways to track that if it's really necessary. For a manager that doesn't trust the employees, activity tracking software gives about the even more information than being there, because you can actually see screenshots.

That is what UpWork does. It's quite invasive, and most people would not tolerate it if they felt they had the choice, but I bring it up as an example of how the software configuration makes as much difference as the physical location. And in fact tens (hundreds?) of thousands of people on UpWork have tolerated it. So it's a real thing, even though it's abhorrent.

The more sane way is having some way to see your reports' work output on a regular basis. And there is no reason that needs to be minute-to-minute or even day-to-day if there is a level of trust.

But presence is not just useful in a physical setting for monitoring employees. It also allows for things like spontaneous communication or types of communication not possible or difficult on a computer screen. Here I think again, the actual software available and the configuration can make a huge difference.

For example, if you truly feel that water-cooler meetings are critical, you can build that into your at-home software setup and just make it mandatory. There are a lot of ways you could do that. It could literally be chat rooms named "water-cooler1" and "water-cooler2" and then you put some piece of required information like an expense code in there so people have to enter.

Or there are various types of software with virtual spaces, such as top-down maps where you see the location of your co-workers and can even hear their conversations if your avatar is close by. There are also 3d world's, both with a screen interface and a virtual reality interface.

I think especially as VR and AR headsets get more comfortable and usable over the next few years, that is really going to be able to compete with physical presence. For example, they are starting to track eye movements. That's going to make it possible to actually communicate using your eyes in VR.

Point being that there is a big spectrum in types or level of presence that is about the type of software and hardware configuration (and culture/rules) as much as it is about actual physical location.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#290
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Commute time is a big thing here. People who have a 2 hour (one way) commute from hell from their massive house are super happy about this situation (shocking, I know). People who live in a small studio apartment 10 minutes from the office see it differently. What I expect this to result in is employers increasingly forcing people to WFH (either outright, or by making the offices horribly unattractive through hot-des…

Really, there are only 2 costs that matter. On the one side you have the commute--both in time and money. On the other side is whether the place you'd be living in otherwise is suitable for long-term WFH or if you have to spend more money for another bedroom or whatever. So, if you already have a dedicated office in an exurban house (as I do), not commuting--which I rarely did anyway--is a cost savings. As someone wh…

But I do not have an extra office in a dedicated bedroom. I live in central Tokyo.

The delta in house price for ‘extra bedroom’ in the place I live is around $250,000.

There is just no way my company is going to even consider reimbursing me for that.

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