Zoom towns and the new housing market for the two Americas • Hacker News Board

Re: Zoom towns and the new housing market for the two Americas

#81

Post by epistasis » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 8:34 PM UTC

cactus2093 wrote: post #45

epistasis wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The picture of a house they show nestled in the trees is incredibly dangerous, incredibly resource intrnsive, and just ecologically unsound. We need to be building massive amounts of housing in city centers to let as many people live in them that would like to. Instead we lock down any new construction in cities, which requires the least amount of infrastructure and environmental damage, and instead let pretty much a…

> A generation of conservatives Very true, even though they convinced themselves and everyone else that they were progressives and environmentalists, just because they don't hate minorities and they like the vibe of trees. (Not to downplay the importance of socially progressive measures, but it's one dimension and they are very conservative on most other dimensions).

I don't disagree at all, but would like to point out a dark streak of nastiness in some of the older crowd. The funny thing is that there's not much of a good history for racial justice from this style of "environmentalist," quite the opposite in fact. Lots of eugenics and white supremacy in the past [1] which has changed into "population control" (of whom?) these days. A lot of it seems, to me, to center on allowing wealthy white individuals to live in isolation without having to be around other people, and the "environment" becomes about preserving their privilege.

[1] https://www.sierraclub.org/articles/2020/06/it-s-past-time-d...

Re: Zoom towns and the new housing market for the two Americas

#82

Post by toomuchtodo » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 8:49 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #53

OzzyB wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...for a life of shopping at Home Depot and spending their Friday nights eating mozzarella sticks at Applebee's, with their families . I added that bit. Funny, they always seem to forget about family, even when talking about 30-somethings from hip rental apartments.

replacing a wide and healthy social net with the family is probably one of the largest cultural diseases of American life of the last few decades In a less abstract sense, roughly 50% of my close friends who did the the whole "move to the burbs, ditch the social life, start a family" and who seemed to go missing for years are now divorced. Roughly in line with the statistics I suppose. I'd go as far as saying that in…

> “A wide and healthy social net”

On the contrary, we’ve never been more lonely and distant as a society. Family gives you a chance of a more permanent safety net and nuclear community. Friends and community are important, but today’s version of these things appears flimsy at best.

https://today.yougov.com/topics/lifestyle/articles-reports/2...

https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2019/8/1/20750047/mil...

https://www.hrsa.gov/enews/past-issues/2019/january-17/lonel...

Re: Zoom towns and the new housing market for the two Americas

#83

Post by chrisco255 » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 8:51 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #53

OzzyB wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...for a life of shopping at Home Depot and spending their Friday nights eating mozzarella sticks at Applebee's, with their families . I added that bit. Funny, they always seem to forget about family, even when talking about 30-somethings from hip rental apartments.

replacing a wide and healthy social net with the family is probably one of the largest cultural diseases of American life of the last few decades In a less abstract sense, roughly 50% of my close friends who did the the whole "move to the burbs, ditch the social life, start a family" and who seemed to go missing for years are now divorced. Roughly in line with the statistics I suppose. I'd go as far as saying that in…

The number of friends you can count on as much as family is abysmally small. How many of your wide social net friends will be there for you in old age? Often times just a little move or a job change is enough to completely shake up your friend group, but family is a constant. That constancy is crucial for a fulfilling life.

Re: Zoom towns and the new housing market for the two Americas

#84

Post by zbrozek » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 8:52 PM UTC

jpindar wrote: post #42

mjayhn wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They almost never have decent internet if you're someone trying to wfh. Most of them are POTS lines only. The ones that have muni fiber would be a possible option but you're making definite trade offs elsewhere. Pubtrans, bike lanes, food options, travel optins, etc.

That's not true. Except for rural areas, most of the US has broadband internet, typically from their cable company.

If only. Despite having a franchise agreement to make service available at every residence in town, it's impossible to actually get broadband at many homes here.

I just cut a large check and signed some papers to be the first community fiber island here, with a microwave link to get us service.

Los Altos Hills, CA

Re: Zoom towns and the new housing market for the two Americas

#85

Post by techsupporter » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 9:15 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #64

techsupporter wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have the same attitude when prices go up? No, but the people on the opposite side of the transaction (the landlords) for damn sure do. "Market price has gone up, what can you do" is something I've been told when trying to negotiate lease renewals, and I'm outside the Bay Area. Landlords could, as a group, have pushed to help make pricing stable and make their investment a long-term, very secure asset. Instead,…

They could have pushed to stabilize the market? The only reason it’s dropping is because of Covid. How could they have avoided a mass exodus due to a pandemic?

If the cost/benefit ratio was more in line with "reasonable living" versus "I'm putting up with this for three years to make bank and then getting the fuck out," that's one way.

Could landlords have completely forestalled people leaving? No. Could they, as a group, have done a lot more to actually agitate for--versus opposing--things like new housing to keep market prices stable (rather than a hockey stick) and worked with tenant groups to aim for a tenancy system that balances each group's needs more directly, rather than "rent consumes almost all available resources?" Yes.

Had landlords tried to work in concert with the people who provide the source of income for landlords, rather the opposing them at almost every turn, the "exodus" might be a rather expected "trickle."

They made their bed of housing scarcity in these possibly-former-hot markets...they can lie in it.

Re: Zoom towns and the new housing market for the two Americas

#86

Post by Barrin92 » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 9:25 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #82

Barrin92 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

replacing a wide and healthy social net with the family is probably one of the largest cultural diseases of American life of the last few decades In a less abstract sense, roughly 50% of my close friends who did the the whole "move to the burbs, ditch the social life, start a family" and who seemed to go missing for years are now divorced. Roughly in line with the statistics I suppose. I'd go as far as saying that in…

> “A wide and healthy social net” On the contrary, we’ve never been more lonely and distant as a society. Family gives you a chance of a more permanent safety net and nuclear community. Friends and community are important, but today’s version of these things appears flimsy at best. https://today.yougov.com/topics/lifestyle/articles-reports/2... https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2019/8/1/20750047/mil... https://w…

>On the contrary, we’ve never been more lonely and distant as a society.

yes, because all communal institutions have been disbanded before millennials were even born, that was the point?

Millenials are lonely because they're the offspring of what was the peak of the nuclear family generation. They're growing up without any communal connection, increasingly without religious communities, Gen Z probably doesn't even have military experience and has largely replaced physical with digital connections and seems to be even more isolated than Millenials.

The nuclear family isn't safety but the last escape hatch in the absence of institutions that should enrich people's personal life beyond the family.

Re: Zoom towns and the new housing market for the two Americas

#87

Post by Barrin92 » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 9:28 PM UTC

chrisco255 wrote: post #83

Barrin92 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

replacing a wide and healthy social net with the family is probably one of the largest cultural diseases of American life of the last few decades In a less abstract sense, roughly 50% of my close friends who did the the whole "move to the burbs, ditch the social life, start a family" and who seemed to go missing for years are now divorced. Roughly in line with the statistics I suppose. I'd go as far as saying that in…

The number of friends you can count on as much as family is abysmally small. How many of your wide social net friends will be there for you in old age? Often times just a little move or a job change is enough to completely shake up your friend group, but family is a constant. That constancy is crucial for a fulfilling life.

>The number of friends you can count on as much as family is abysmally small. How many of your wide social net friends will be there for you in old age?

I personally hopefully a lot because I pay a lot of attention to cultivate them. My grandparents throughout their entire life had a rich social life up until the very end with friendships lasting decades, they even lived entirely autonomously in a cooperative community for the elderly.

It's my parents, who are now 60-ish, who have no friends. Because unlike my grandparents they grew up in what was peak nuclear family era. I'm not repeating that mistake and it's pretty sad that people here don't even seem to be able to imagine authentic communal life.

Re: Zoom towns and the new housing market for the two Americas

#88

Post by chrisco255 » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 9:33 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #86

toomuchtodo wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “A wide and healthy social net” On the contrary, we’ve never been more lonely and distant as a society. Family gives you a chance of a more permanent safety net and nuclear community. Friends and community are important, but today’s version of these things appears flimsy at best. https://today.yougov.com/topics/lifestyle/articles-reports/2... https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2019/8/1/20750047/mil... https://w…

>On the contrary, we’ve never been more lonely and distant as a society. yes, because all communal institutions have been disbanded before millennials were even born, that was the point? Millenials are lonely because they're the offspring of what was the peak of the nuclear family generation. They're growing up without any communal connection, increasingly without religious communities, Gen Z probably doesn't even ha…

That's weird because the nuclear family is as old as civilization and the idea of wide social nets that span long distances is relatively new. For vast majority of human history we lived in small tribes and then the family became the tribe to belong to within a civilization. Virtually any institution you could point to is less than a few generations from being mainstream meanwhile family is timeless. I get that some people come from dysfunctional families but that does not discount the rule that by and large they are the strongest source of emotional support and stability. And really, as I've gotten older I've come to appreciate that more and more.

Re: Zoom towns and the new housing market for the two Americas

#89

Post by alex_g » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 9:57 PM UTC

randycupertino wrote: post #63

haram_masala wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alameda comes to mind. Completely walkable, charming, great community feel. It's an island, so going over bridges or through the tube to go anywhere can be a bit of a hassle, but it's well worth it.

The pinball museum in Alameda is one of my favorite spots! I hope it survives the shutdown, they always seem to be operating on a shoestring budget. Super cool place if anyone hasn't checked it out before, highly recommend!

I second this, spent my birthday there last year and it was a blast!

Re: Zoom towns and the new housing market for the two Americas

#90

Post by Barrin92 » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 10:02 PM UTC

chrisco255 wrote: post #88

Barrin92 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>On the contrary, we’ve never been more lonely and distant as a society. yes, because all communal institutions have been disbanded before millennials were even born, that was the point? Millenials are lonely because they're the offspring of what was the peak of the nuclear family generation. They're growing up without any communal connection, increasingly without religious communities, Gen Z probably doesn't even ha…

That's weird because the nuclear family is as old as civilization and the idea of wide social nets that span long distances is relatively new. For vast majority of human history we lived in small tribes and then the family became the tribe to belong to within a civilization. Virtually any institution you could point to is less than a few generations from being mainstream meanwhile family is timeless. I get that some…

This isn't actually true at all. The extended family is the historically most long lasting form of organisation, people banding together in communities of about 100-150 people, sharing responsibility and living in multi-generational environments.

This was the case until very recently in fact. The nuclear family is largely an abberation brought on by the commercialisation of what used to be the job of a village. David Brooks wrote an excellent piece on the development (in the US in particular) not long ago:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/03/the-nuc...

The dysfunction you're speaking about is actually a result of that very same dynamic. Largely affluent upper-middle classes have replaced the extended family with professional services and shrunk the family unit down. It's poor people and minority communities who, lacking those resources, have suffered the most from the breakdown of the extended family.