Oil Companies Touted Recycling to Sell More Plastic • Hacker News Board

Re: Oil Companies Touted Recycling to Sell More Plastic

#141

Post by adsljfl3 » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 9:05 PM UTC

dgellow wrote: post #99

I have difficulties to understand if that's US specific or also a problem in Europe and the rest of the world. For example, I'm reading this article from 2011 that mentions that 77% of Japan's plastic is recycled: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/dec/29/japan-le... Is that complete bullshit too, or is something possible to actually achieve, just not in the US?

I think one of the comments in here mentions that Japan only accepts PET plastic which apparently doesn't have these issues. Regardless the main issue is that the US is not strict about how we label things or regulate things related to recycling. There is only a small subset of plastics that are recyclable.

Re: Oil Companies Touted Recycling to Sell More Plastic

#142

Post by rch » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 9:08 PM UTC

dgellow wrote: post #69

hesdeadjim wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get doubtful looks from friends when I explain to them that the only waste worth sticking in the recycling bin is aluminum and glass. These articles that have popped up on this topic are hugely useful to refer people to. I don’t enjoy being right, I just want there to be an open understanding of the lies that have led us to this situation so new solutions can be developed. It might just be that burying it in the gr…

PET is also useful to put in a recycle bin (or in the PET bin, or bring back to the store, whatever is the correct thing to do where you live), it's highly recyclable. I'm always surprised to see that a lot of places don't seem to care about it and don't have special accommodations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PET_bottle_recycling

In some places PET is the only plastic allowed in recycling bins. In Zürich fines are possible for failing to observe the restrictions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_management_in_Switzerlan...

Re: Oil Companies Touted Recycling to Sell More Plastic

#143

Post by maxerickson » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 9:10 PM UTC

jonplackett wrote: post #124

maxerickson wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What meaning of oil are you using? Skin works a lot better with oil, for instance, and it isn't absurd to say that most cells in animals are made out of oil.

Hah. I knew someone would take it super literally! I’m just meaning without the in the ground stuff!

I didn't take it super literally though, I just pointed out that it was ambiguous.

Given the likely biological origins of petroleum, you'd have to phrase your hypothetical in terms of extraction to avoid the question.

Re: Oil Companies Touted Recycling to Sell More Plastic

#144

Post by zests » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 9:11 PM UTC

Here's another one about paper recycling that I read in a book once. Surprisingly it's not discussed very much at all and its hard for me to judge how accurate it is.

"Recycling paper is not worth it. The paper we use is grown specifically to be harvested and used in paper. The act of growing and using this paper is a form of carbon sequestration. When we recycle paper, we lose out in an opportunity to sequester more carbon from the air. Landfills prevent the carbon in paper from re-entering the carbon cycle."

I think the most convincing argument against this is that the tree farms take up land that could be used for other purposes.

Re: Oil Companies Touted Recycling to Sell More Plastic

#145

Post by snuxoll » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 9:14 PM UTC

rch wrote: post #142

dgellow wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PET is also useful to put in a recycle bin (or in the PET bin, or bring back to the store, whatever is the correct thing to do where you live), it's highly recyclable. I'm always surprised to see that a lot of places don't seem to care about it and don't have special accommodations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PET_bottle_recycling

In some places PET is the only plastic allowed in recycling bins. In Zürich fines are possible for failing to observe the restrictions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_management_in_Switzerlan...

My city only take PET (1/2) plastics here in the states, nothing else is worth the cost.

Re: Oil Companies Touted Recycling to Sell More Plastic

#146

Post by tylorr » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 9:19 PM UTC

I remember hearing some time ago that sorting at the facility was going to be more efficient than pre-sorting at home because we can't trust everyone to sort properly so sorting at the facility was required anyway. Is this not the case anymore? I see many other comments saying that comingled recycling is bad.

Re: Oil Companies Touted Recycling to Sell More Plastic

#147

Post by mgh2 » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 9:20 PM UTC

Well China did buy it for recycling, but since that is changing, the corporate narrative needs to change too.

https://slate.com/technology/2018/06/why-china-import-half-w...

Re: Oil Companies Touted Recycling to Sell More Plastic

#148

Post by coredog64 » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 9:20 PM UTC

LordDragonfang wrote: post #77

tastyfreeze wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If consumers were compensated for recycling materials they would be much more inclined to sort properly. Recycling centers that take materials that cost too much to recycle likely have a government contract to "take care of it". They dont have a lot of incentive to be efficient. They get paid to make it disappear.

I don't know about where you live, but in California, we have a "bottle deposit" on both glass bottles and aluminum cans (~$0.10 per item), which gets returned to you if you bring it to a recycling center. The only people I see actually bothering to sort and return these are very low income people and homeless people that go through public trash cans.

NYC is the same, but the way refuse is handled makes it more convenient for people to “harvest” it. I lived on the Upper East Side for a while, and building managers would bag up recycling in clear bags. Then you’d see people out collecting the bottles and cans out of the bag but also making sure to tidy up afterwards. The collection crews would have gigantic bags, carts, etc. that they’d take to larger grocery stores to turn in for the deposit.

Re: Oil Companies Touted Recycling to Sell More Plastic

#149

Post by hosh » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 9:21 PM UTC

Food waste in landfills is arguably a much bigger problem than plastics being dumped into landfills. The acid produced from the decomposing organics eats away plastics and metals, creating a toxic leachate. Landfills try to contain that, but it is not contained 100%. That stuff leaks out into soil, potentially into aquifers. Furthermore the methane gases can build up in the landfill with potentially explosive consequences. Many landfills add vertical pipes to vent it, but it isn't captured for later use, contributing to greenhouse gases.

Contrast that with being able to process food waste onsite (or at least the neighborhood level) using the carbon cycle -- vermicomposting and conventional composting. They feed the plant, and unlike oil-based fertilizers, they help build up soil fertility long-term.

There are many more actions an individual can take that contributes towards the health of the ecology. I think a lot of people latch onto recycling because it is one of the few things people know how to do that they think contributes towards a better ecology. But there are so many more impactful things individuals and communities can do, that does not depend upon forcing large megacorps to do the right thing.

Re: Oil Companies Touted Recycling to Sell More Plastic

#150

Post by bloaf » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 9:21 PM UTC

regularfry wrote: post #112

neltnerb wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, plastic degrades each time it is recycled. They knew that, every materials scientist knew that, and it is just not possible to fully reclaim recycled plastic. What really pisses me off is the use of the recycling number as marketing. Which is still ongoing and being modernized. Leave a complaint card any time you see compostable plastic being used in a city that doesn't have specialized industrial composting plan…

It depends if fully reclaiming it as plastic is the goal. That's the current model, but there are other routes available. Two options that don't quite work yet (but have moderately promising potential) are either to break the plastic down to useful precursors with enzymes, or pyrolise it down to biochar. To my knowledge, the enzyme approach has shown a modicum of promise in labs but is still impractical, while making…

If you want to do anything at meaningful scale, it's unlikely anyone is going to make biochar. If the big oil companies really feel pressured by a need to recycle plastic, they'll just look for a way to stick it into one of their existing facilities, maybe a coker.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_coker