Why do so many people want us back in the office? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#201

Post by weeksie » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 8:40 PM UTC

alexbanks wrote: post #126

weeksie wrote: post #28

The long term shakeout of this will be that everybody realizes that yes, we need offices. They are spaces literally built for working. The required footprint will be smaller, people won't need to be in the office for absolutely everything, the demand for square footage of commercial real estate will decrease a bit—good news for cities who don't build b/c they can convert excess commercial inventory to residential. Bu…

> The long term shakeout of this will be that everybody realizes that yes, we need offices. You said this, and then wrote the rest of your post about the opposite? Why do you think we'll need offices?

Remote work is massively inefficient for some things, even if it is much more efficient for others. Smart firms will do the efficient thing in the most efficient place and see gains across the board as a result.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#202

Post by s0rce » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 8:40 PM UTC

x87678r wrote: post #124

My commute is 20 minutes on an uncrowded ferry, and my home office is a tiny desk in my daughter's bedroom while she works on the other side on school stuff. My colleague has a massive house with a pool tennis court and so much space he has literally 3 never-used bedrooms. His wife looks after kids who are at school most of the day again. His commute is 2 hours each way. People are talking home vs office people are c…

Exactly, I have a 1 bdrm apartment (in law) that I share with my wife. We alternate working at a desk in the living area, at the dining table or a folding table set up in the bedroom. I used to commute 20min by bike in the SF East Bay. I very infrequently go in when I need to do something in the lab (biotech company, not everything can be done remotely).

When I found this place I never intended for it to for it to be full time wfh space for 2 people.

If I knew I'd only go to the office once a month I could live in Minden, NV or something.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#203

Post by s0rce » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 8:42 PM UTC

tima11234 wrote: post #192

gordaco wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I agree. I miss my old routine too. I even have a dedicated office of sorts, and working from home is comfortable and convenient to me. But... I miss the commute. The bus I used to take wasn't particularly uncrowded, but I always managed to get a seat (thanks to having a particularly early schedule) and I used to take the opportunity to read (since each trip took about 40-45 minutes, that's about 1h30m of readi…

People need to adapt. Just because you can't seem to figure out how to read a book now or listen to pod casts because you only did those things when forced to commute, isn't a good argument against WFH.

I didn't read their post as an argument against WFH, just that they happened to like their routine. I happened to bike to work, about 10mi per day. I rarely get on my bike now, sure I could, but I liked the routine and it really helped me get exercise. Like the OP I'm not saying everyone should do that, just that it worked for me. If I had to commute 2hr in traffic by car I would absolutely prefer WFH.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#204

Post by weeksie » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 8:43 PM UTC

cntrpt9293 wrote: post #135

weeksie wrote: post #28

The long term shakeout of this will be that everybody realizes that yes, we need offices. They are spaces literally built for working. The required footprint will be smaller, people won't need to be in the office for absolutely everything, the demand for square footage of commercial real estate will decrease a bit—good news for cities who don't build b/c they can convert excess commercial inventory to residential. Bu…

Sounds like you’re arguing for WeWork not offices as usual. We don’t need corporate offices full of cubes and butts and chairs. We need co-working spaces sometimes. Personally, my employer of 92 is doing fine remote. So, you know, anecdata and all that There’s that personality though that needs a group to help them decide on the color of a button, and how thick a drop shadow should be. Let’s hope those folks are able…

No. I'm saying many (most) firms will still require offices. The shape of the office will change as firms realize which business functions work best in the office and which are best remote. This will take many years to shake out because not every firm will correctly identify these functions.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#205

Post by zwischenzug » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 8:43 PM UTC

Interesting piece. I wrote a similar one recently about the effects of an office exodus on central London property. So far some of my predictions have come to pass, eg paradoxical mini property boom outside London

https://zwischenzugs.com/2020/07/25/the-halving-of-the-centr...

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#206

Post by saos » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 8:46 PM UTC

x87678r wrote: post #199

saos wrote: post #14

Yeah I’d like to go back but 2 days a week. Any more and it’s over kill really. 3 other days can be used for deep work at home. I’m tech guy working in marketing...these type of people love to appear at your desk every so often in the office. Now with Slack I can just not sign in or set my status as away and reply when I want. It’s asynchronous communication and really good for “me”. And truth is. Everyone is differe…

Is that everyone the same 2 days a week? Because its a problem if everyone chooses different days you still can't get those interactions.

Yes my whole team will decide the two days to come in and meet.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#207

Post by s0rce » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 8:46 PM UTC

jefflombardjr wrote: post #61

arcticbull wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I miss the ad-hoc conversations with coworkers that lead to cool product innovation. I also miss being able to mentor junior engineers in person, and receiving in-person mentorship from my seniors. I personally believe that we're all running on the trajectory and direction we scoped before the shut-down, and as we move into H1 planning next year, things are going to get much slower and more complicated.

But do you really need that from a company? I get that from coworking spaces. And if anything I'd argue it's more innovative. Instead of a bunch of programmers spouting group think, I get to interact with writers, artists, indie game devs, etc. Way more innovative than any programmer group I've been in.

I couldn't really talk to random people at a coworking space unless they signed NDAs, which would be hard to enforce. Lots of IP and other secrets. Do people really discuss their work with strangers at coworking spaces? I've never worked in one so thats interesting/surprising. Maybe some more generic programming challenges could be discussed vs product/research specifics.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#208

Post by sjy » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 8:47 PM UTC

danielrhodes wrote: post #177

Outside of the pandemic, I think a company doing remote/WFH carries with it some implications people don’t seem to talk about - namely that your physical workspace and equipment used is capital, and the company is not compensating employees for the use of that capital. If a company does not need to maintain office space, that is a huge expense they don’t have to pay for - but an employee is paying for it. Right now y…

Companies don’t compensate employees for the cost of their commute either. I don’t see the big deal here; the marginal cost of working from home is often pretty close to zero.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#209

Post by ghaff » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 8:47 PM UTC

tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #189

x87678r wrote: post #124

My commute is 20 minutes on an uncrowded ferry, and my home office is a tiny desk in my daughter's bedroom while she works on the other side on school stuff. My colleague has a massive house with a pool tennis court and so much space he has literally 3 never-used bedrooms. His wife looks after kids who are at school most of the day again. His commute is 2 hours each way. People are talking home vs office people are c…

Commute time is a big thing here. People who have a 2 hour (one way) commute from hell from their massive house are super happy about this situation (shocking, I know). People who live in a small studio apartment 10 minutes from the office see it differently. What I expect this to result in is employers increasingly forcing people to WFH (either outright, or by making the offices horribly unattractive through hot-des…

Really, there are only 2 costs that matter.

On the one side you have the commute--both in time and money.

On the other side is whether the place you'd be living in otherwise is suitable for long-term WFH or if you have to spend more money for another bedroom or whatever.

So, if you already have a dedicated office in an exurban house (as I do), not commuting--which I rarely did anyway--is a cost savings. As someone who has mostly worked remotely for years, all the other stuff is pretty trivial even given the occasional significant purchase (I had to replace my very old office chair).

I already have to clean my house and/or have it done. And the delta in utilities, etc. is trivial.

ADDED: Companies sometimes have covered co-working spaces. Though I suspect this will become less common.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#210

Post by balfirevic » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 8:50 PM UTC

saiya-jin wrote: post #138

weeksie wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've identified it. We're talking about productivity gains, so that accountant gets as much done as they did before, minus the commute time. At a bare minimum, that's doing 8 hours of work in 8 hours, versus 8 hours of work in 10 hours, or whatever your commute is. People who drive (most people) cannot usually perform economic activity during their commute. Better yet, maybe that accountant figures that they really…

I think the economy and productivity and everything else that makes economy and work tick are way more complex than your simplification to no commute = massive gains for economy, companies and happy new future for everybody is coming. I see it in abundance in every single discussion here and elsewhere - people who hate commute but for whatever bad/stupid reason ended up far far away and were wasting hours every day o…

> There are massive issues right now. Physical fitness is rapidly declining. People are going less out, less sun exposure. Amount of mental issues is understandably shooting through the roof (saw some firures about 5x increase in some cases). Economy is going down the toilet, some parts of it will crash very hard, possibly unrecoverably in current generation. These are effects that will be around for very long time even if we have 100% cure for covid tomorrow for 1 cent per dose.

It'll be really hard to discuss remote work productively if you keep conflating it with COVID-induced issues.