Why do so many people want us back in the office? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#61

Post by jefflombardjr » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 2:21 PM UTC

arcticbull wrote: post #35

iforgotpassword wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel more distracted at home and miss the social interactions with coworkers. Video conferences are tiresome.

I miss the ad-hoc conversations with coworkers that lead to cool product innovation. I also miss being able to mentor junior engineers in person, and receiving in-person mentorship from my seniors. I personally believe that we're all running on the trajectory and direction we scoped before the shut-down, and as we move into H1 planning next year, things are going to get much slower and more complicated.

But do you really need that from a company? I get that from coworking spaces. And if anything I'd argue it's more innovative.

Instead of a bunch of programmers spouting group think, I get to interact with writers, artists, indie game devs, etc. Way more innovative than any programmer group I've been in.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#62

Post by garden_hermit » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 2:21 PM UTC

I love remote work—some of the time. I also love offices—some of the time. I fear that in ditching offices completely, we might lose out on some society-level benefits, like knowledge spillovers. Specifically, remote-work (to me) makes it more difficult to learn from others, to hear about what else is happening in the organization, to discuss interesting new ideas that could potentially be spun into new products or companies. A team can also more easily and quickly learn to collaborate while in-person.

This doesn't even touch on all the economic spillovers of having people in the same area, such as restaurants and other services catering to the concentration of office workers (as mentioned by the author), but also things like specialized lawyers, financiers, and other professional services that concentrate around Silicon Valley and other agglomerative clusters.

Ultimately, I hope we can come to a compromise, something like 50/50 remote/office, with smaller offices that cater more towards the explicitly social functions of the organization.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#63

Post by rangoon626 » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 2:22 PM UTC

I went from an environment of blaring led lights, friends repeats playing on the tv all day that I had to muffle with headphones because people could stand to work “in a library” and commuting 30+ min each way in stressful crawling traffic, to sleeping in an hour longer, natural lighting and a quiet environment with better hardware than what the office has.

This has made me insanely productive and I don’t know if I have ever had such a great streak before. Going back to the office ruins all of that.

So I say, boo-hoo to the real estate investors.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#64

Post by dschuetz » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 2:22 PM UTC

derwiki wrote: post #57

dschuetz wrote: post #37

It's about control. Many managers like to micromanage everything and everybody very much, but that does not work very well remotely. They want to make sure, or at least to be able to make sure, that their workers, well, work. Many are afraid to loose that kind of control, because that's the only thing they can do best.

Is this restricted to first line managers? Or do second line managers micromanager first, directors second, etc. Thankfully have managed to avoid this sort of manager so no first hand experience.

I think, the second level management is the unluckiest of them all. It's impossible to micromanage several lower level managers at the same time. Whoever tries, fails or burns out.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#65

Post by hordeallergy » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 2:22 PM UTC

I have no interest in being in the office. The commute is horrid and a waste of time. The socialising is insignificant. The water cooler never has more than one visitor at a time, so the idea of it being an idea exchange is myth. Everyone communicates via chat in office, with headphones on. Being able to separate work and private life is a matter of self discipline, the other matters are not. The only thing I want is for coffee shops to return to normal.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#66

Post by leetcrew » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 2:23 PM UTC

mcphilip wrote: post #18

I think ideally it should be up to the employee to return when they feel safe. That being said, I look forward to going back to the office. It’ll be nice to see people again —- few people bother to turn on their video on zoom anymore for anything other than one-on-ones, myself included, and that is starting to feel alienating to me. I don’t think it’s wise having a policy that you must have video enabled, though, it’…

> I think ideally it should be up to the employee to return when they feel safe.

agree, but not as an explicit company policy. what I mean is, if the company officially says something like "the office is open, but you don't have to come back until you feel safe", this can put pressure on employees to agree that they feel safe. if you're one of the last people to return, maybe you start feeling pressure to give some sort of concrete reason why. I think it would result in a lot of people returning when they don't actually feel safe.

imo there are three reasonable positions: a) office is closed, only essential staff allowed on premises; b) office is open, but physical attendance is strictly optional (without any caveats about "feeling safe"); or c) office is open and you have to come back.

edit to address the article you linked: I do feel for those people who do office support work and suddenly have no customers. but doesn't it suggest that a lot of that work wasn't really necessary in the first place? I just can't see how it can be a net harm for remote workers to cook themselves hot lunches every day (or just spend less for a similar cold cut sandwich).

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#67

Post by agrippanux » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 2:24 PM UTC

mikece wrote: post #3

Who is demanding this? My company is openly talking about “office optional” when normalcy returns with “office days” being the exception rather than the norm.

My company was a few months away from an office move when Covid hit. Most leadership was fiercely anti-wfh. Fast forward to today, and the new office buildout has been converted into a “hotel” model with no permanent desks and the expectation is when it’s safe, you will have option to do come in a few days a week.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#68

Post by jefflombardjr » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 2:24 PM UTC

ketzu wrote: post #15

ckdarby wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you discuss why you want to go back to the office?

Number one reason for me is the separation of work and private life. It's so much easier to keep work from creeping into my private life when it happens in a totally different place. I also miss the social interactions, discussion with colleagues is much easier in person. Lastly, I hope it will reduce the amount of video conferences that crept up considerably. edit: Not OP obviously. edit2: Note: Just to make sure, I…

That's a great reason. You like to set boundaries between work and private life.

But I'm not convinced a corporate office is the only, let alone, best option. Have you considered alternatives?

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#69

Post by supernova87a » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 2:24 PM UTC

I've mentioned this before, but WFH has a huge difference in result depending on who you are, when you are (in your career), and where you are in a company (or organization). For some people, going back to the office has benefits.

-- For the budding young developer who can't wait to show ideas to teammates and demonstrate being a go-getter by asking random questions and finding unaddressed issues to innovate on, WFH might be terrible. You're going to schedule time to fortuitously run into the senior person who takes an interest in your idea?

-- For the working parent whose productivity has been slashed by 50% and stress has gone up by 50% due to parenting obligations, WFH might be terrible.

-- For the middle manager who can coast along and not need to move greatly in his/her career, WFH might be great.

-- For the developer who works by tickets on very concrete things and this is nothing new, WFH might be great.

-- For the small company CEO who relies on force of personality and everyone in the same room urgently working to get something done, WFH might be terrible.

There's a huge variability in what WFH means, depending on what you want from the situation.

For some people, remote working is really not good.

And also count your other hidden factors -- when everyone is remote, you're also competing with the world who is also remote. Jobs and job qualifications (and competition) may change. You might still have a job if people have to go back in person...

This is not just "those evil exploitative bosses want to get us back in offices". It's not that simple, as with anything.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#70

Post by arcticbull » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 2:24 PM UTC

jefflombardjr wrote: post #61

arcticbull wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I miss the ad-hoc conversations with coworkers that lead to cool product innovation. I also miss being able to mentor junior engineers in person, and receiving in-person mentorship from my seniors. I personally believe that we're all running on the trajectory and direction we scoped before the shut-down, and as we move into H1 planning next year, things are going to get much slower and more complicated.

But do you really need that from a company? I get that from coworking spaces. And if anything I'd argue it's more innovative. Instead of a bunch of programmers spouting group think, I get to interact with writers, artists, indie game devs, etc. Way more innovative than any programmer group I've been in.

I prefer that when I'm working on my own projects, but at BigCo, I can't really do that :)