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JL on Female Founders

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Re: JL on Female Founders

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. The reference to cultural memes is a chicken an egg argument; by claiming "complete domination" you essentially overlook the origin of said memes. I'm not armed with sources, but I daresay that nature has given everything specialization, so much so that applying the same ideas to the sexes is not the slightest bit strange. More strongly said, there is nothing surprising when one sex exhibits traits much more ost…

you essentially overlook the origin of said memes. I don't overlook the origin. Your thrust seems to be that culture only magnifies innate difference. Perhaps this is true in simple cases, but I think that there are particular examples where culture takes on a mind of its own. I point out that existing cultural bias might be due to biological bias interacting with environmental factors long extinct. This bias is enco…

Existing cultural bias might just be a carry over from prehistoric times, entirely irrelevant to whether or not there are now meaningful differences in aptitude, in this, the present.

This is easy to show: superstitions and religions. Then, reverence of those closer to gods. Religion is almost completely cognitive, and so only humans are able to develop, propagate, and perpetuate it. It is also cognitive in the sense that children are not developed enough to invent it themselves. This fits the "entirely irrelevant" category.

But for other things that can be explained loosely by behavioral drift, the chicken and egg problem remains. Perhaps a small, innate difference was exacerbated by culture, creating a sustained, artificial specialization; this is also the byproduct of the human tendency to generalize. Not saying it's the most efficient, but in most cases I would say there is nontrivial relevance.

I never claimed equality ... a difference many dozens of times that.

This I agree with. The examples of risky behavior like dating strange men and running away though, I'm not so sure if they make good comparison; it is possible to look at these behaviors from another angle (behavioral/biological), but that's not to devalue the point you made.

About sperm of high status males. High status males produce more offspring, several of which can be females, who inherit the status. Upon rereading I realize I'm confused about this point. How are males's status not also spread through memes (disregarding relative degree)? I suppose you'd say they are, then what's the crux of saying that high status females produce less?

Another clarification, what kind of mathematics is that used by the evolutionary biologists?

Above questions are for my own interest and I won't follow up on them. I mostly agree with you, but I'm fairly sure "completely dominates" is an overstatement, and I went about throwing pebbles because you asked.

Re: JL on Female Founders

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you essentially overlook the origin of said memes. I don't overlook the origin. Your thrust seems to be that culture only magnifies innate difference. Perhaps this is true in simple cases, but I think that there are particular examples where culture takes on a mind of its own. I point out that existing cultural bias might be due to biological bias interacting with environmental factors long extinct. This bias is enco…

The easiest way to prove something is genetic rather than cultural is to examine different cultures throughout the world, especially isolated ones like pygmies or aborigines. The paradigm of man as provider and woman as nurturer, and the mating ramifications of that (i.e. women preferring men who are able to provide, which most closely translates in our society to wealth, and men preferring women more fit to raise ch…

The easiest way to prove something is genetic rather than cultural is to examine different cultures throughout the world, especially isolated ones like pygmies or aborigines.

I agree that this is easy, but I am not sure that it is in fact accurate. To do so you must show that the particular cultural values you're exploring do not share anthropological linage. This is a very difficult problem. How do you propose to handle that case?

The paradigm of man as provider and woman as nurturer, and the mating ramifications of that (i.e. women preferring men who are able to provide, which most closely translates in our society to wealth, and men preferring women more fit to raise children, which in our society most closely translates to healthy appearance) are virtually universal.

So would you draw the line from this evolutionary argument like so: men have a greater instinct to produce wealth or high status, which causes them to produce more startups.

The problem I have with this is that's its so vague. If we don't actually try to nail down or postulate an actual theory, people can be lazy and undisciplined in their thought. They might say, for example "here are some good reasons that the sexes might be intrinsically different; any existing difference is just the way things are, due intrinsically, and due to genetics". My point is that the disciplined way to approach this question is that you actually need to make specific predictions, or you risk degenerating into religious war.

So, in which ways is this instinct for men to provide manifested?

Compared to startups, law or medicine or finance seems a surer method to acquire status and prestige, and you probably come out ahead on average. More women are in these fields than in startups.

And physical science and engineering aren't particularly high prestige careers, nor do they make much wealth, nor do they seem to improve procreative chances. And these fields are particularly male centric.

So then usually someone points out that men like to take risks. They aim for the massive payoffs. If that's so, one should examine the structure of risks that men take versus women.

So, we have a set of hypotheses, backed up in varying amounts by data. Men are much more likely to do one off things to impress people. I guess this is called machismo. They're much more likely to take physical risks, or health risks. They may be more likely to take risks in their social stature, so long as they have little to lose. They're more likely to risk the state of a relationship for some impulse, someone or something that they want.

By contrast, I postulate, women are more likely to risk themselves emotionally. They are more likely to invest themselves in one particular friendship or relationship, even if it risks not panning out. Men, by contrast, fear commitment. They're more likely to keep their eggs out of one basket (see especially, for example, studies on the messaging patterns and viewing patterns and requests and satisfaction on dating sites). Women are more likely to invest themselves emotionally in some community, cause, person, or idea.

Doesn't this sound like a startup?

It's striking how many female entrepreneurs describe starting a startup like having a baby. Mena Trott (in founders at work) describes it like having a chemical in your brain that blocks out the painful moments, leaving only the other ones in memory (This effect is described also of pregnancy, and recently they've actually discovered that such a chemical exists). Are women more ready to devote themselves like this? Are women more emotionally prepared for a startup? Perhaps.

So, we have conflicting attitudes towards risk. On one hand, we postulate, men are more likely to be driven by promises of extreme status and wealth. On the other, women are perhaps more emotionally prepared, in some areas, when they get there. It seems like this should be a fairly balanced game.

But it's not. Female founders make up 3% of the YC pool. The risk and wealth hypothesis can't handle this alone.

Something has to take up the slack. And I think that it has much to do with the fact that different memes that define success in this society propagate to men and to women.

Re: JL on Female Founders

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you essentially overlook the origin of said memes. I don't overlook the origin. Your thrust seems to be that culture only magnifies innate difference. Perhaps this is true in simple cases, but I think that there are particular examples where culture takes on a mind of its own. I point out that existing cultural bias might be due to biological bias interacting with environmental factors long extinct. This bias is enco…

Existing cultural bias might just be a carry over from prehistoric times, entirely irrelevant to whether or not there are now meaningful differences in aptitude, in this, the present. This is easy to show: superstitions and religions. Then, reverence of those closer to gods. Religion is almost completely cognitive, and so only humans are able to develop, propagate, and perpetuate it. It is also cognitive in the sense…

I guess I'm using 'entirely' and 'completely irrelevant' as literary flourishes, hoping that the qualifiers elsewhere modulate the meaning properly. But I guess that's a little confusing...

what's the crux of saying that high status females produce less?

My point is that, the same behaviors that men can use to achieve high status, if women use they're frowned upon. Even if they succeed in using said behaviors to achieve a higher status, cultural resistance applied a force restricting the spread of those memes to other women. (For example, talking behind someone's back about 'whipping' employees or coworkers, or ad-homeniem/targeted/unfairly focussed attacks, such as on Martha Stewart or Hillary Clinton or Kathy Sierra http://headrush.typepad.com/)

what kind of mathematics is that used by the evolutionary biologists?

Some do a lot of analysis, or combinatorics. I'm actually more interested in a complexity approach, in the manner of stephen wolfram, because there's a lot of complexity which I think can't be easily engineered out -- it's better simulated.

Re: JL on Female Founders

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, your explanation does not go the whole way. Consider the evolution of biological genes: a) Men and women share mostly the same genes (the y chromosome is a desolate wasteland), and there are few (if any) known mechanisms by which gene merging is different for male and female humans. b) Dominant, decisive, intelligent, women are likely to share similar evolutionary advantages to men. Note that I leave h…

a) Genes are not expressed the same way in men and women. To oversimplify a little, if a gene is only activated in the presence of male levels of testosterone, it will not be expressed in women. In the long run, natural selection hooks up genes that are beneficial in men and harmful in women to testosterone-sensitive gene promoters, though this may take a long time, and in the meantime you may end up with women with…

Gene expression is a good point. It was in the back of my mind (and I glossed over it completely), but you've succinctly explained why it's actually an important issue.

Do you have a notion as to the relative time for gene promoters to hook to a gene with sex dependent fitness? I imagine that the mathematics of evolution would depend to a large degree on gene selector or gene meme coupling.

Re: JL on Female Founders

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While that makes for a neatly packaged Darwinian theory, it's important to remember that genetic selection is not the only force that affects our decisions. Medicine, culture, technology, and many other factors affect, and even override, what our genes may steer us toward if they could "act in a vacuum." Not convinced? By the same theory, one would think that men in today's society would be highly encouraged to have…

Men have always been encouraged to have sex with a lot of different partners, not to sire children with them. (Children were, of course, the reason that men developed the urge, but the urge stands separately, as shown by the fact that men do not decrease their mating habits when there is no chance of pregnancy.) That's clearly still the case in modern society. Spend 10 minutes in a high school locker room and you'll…

Why is it sexist to say we show up more frequently in science departments because we have also been designed by evolution to be better at math?

Because compared with bench-pressing, claims of mathematically ability being better in men (and partially ordered, to boot) is seriously jumping the gun.

We know what's involved in a bench press. We understand how testosterone stimulates the production of muscle. We are nowhere close with mathematical ability. We have no theory of mathematically ability -- we really don't know what it means, or if the simplest metrics are even useful for higher level math. We have no experimental results, because we have no controlled variables. We have few pieces of data, none of which are conclusively disentangled from cultural and historical influence.

In the past two decades, the number of women scoring highly on the IMO, the IOI, the Putnam, and SMPY has gone up by roughly a factor of six. Doubtful that the number of girls with 'math talent genes' have sextupled that quickly. Isn't this evidence that we should hold off on our conclusions?

Re: JL on Female Founders

#56
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's close - but not quite what I was taught. Basically, men aren't as important as women. If 99.99% of men died today, the human race could be back to it's normal population within a generation (a man could easily father a child a day for 30 years ~10,000 children). On the other hand, we'd have much more trouble if 99.9% of women died, since a women can only realistically have about 10 children in a lifetime. This…

A women, on the other hand, can likely have 10 children whether or not she is successful Surely you are joking... Miscarriages, even a century ago, claimed so many women . You would be lucky to live past your third, much less your tenth! Without some network to provided for her (either by her family, or the village, or her mate, all of which are strongly effected by status), the likelihood of surviving a pregnancy be…

Families with nine or ten children weren't all that uncommon in my grandparents' generation here in Taiwan.

Even today, there are ten different countries in which the fertility rate is currently above 6 and a couple above 7. I don't think 10 children would be unreasonable as an upper bound for the exceptionally successful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_territori...

Re: JL on Female Founders

#57
post #28
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That implies that women have a greater biological imperative to reproduce than men. I don't know that that's true. Honestly, I see my "grad school clock" as an equally big, if not bigger, problem than anyone's biological clock. When you do a startup, you have to choose your priorities -- the implication is that neither kids nor grad school are amongst them.

Women certainly do have a greater biological imperative to reproduce than men. It's for the very simple reason that a woman's fertility starts declining in her early 20's and bottoms out around age 40 -- a man's fertility erodes very slightly and is usually in perfectly serviceable condition at age 60.

Actually, semen quality starts to decline while men are still in their 20s. See - http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/02/030210080435.ht...

Re: JL on Female Founders

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Existing cultural bias might just be a carry over from prehistoric times, entirely irrelevant to whether or not there are now meaningful differences in aptitude, in this, the present. This is easy to show: superstitions and religions. Then, reverence of those closer to gods. Religion is almost completely cognitive, and so only humans are able to develop, propagate, and perpetuate it. It is also cognitive in the sense…

I guess I'm using 'entirely' and 'completely irrelevant' as literary flourishes, hoping that the qualifiers elsewhere modulate the meaning properly. But I guess that's a little confusing... what's the crux of saying that high status females produce less? My point is that, the same behaviors that men can use to achieve high status, if women use they're frowned upon. Even if they succeed in using said behaviors to achi…

> the same behaviors that men can use to achieve high status, if women use they're frowned upon

To achieve high status, males have to endure much more than being frowned upon; the price of failure, historically, has often been death. You bring up Hillary, but compare the total weight of attacks on her with the total weight of attacks on McCain or Obama. Even if we take just the ad hominem ones.

Re: JL on Female Founders

#59
post #16
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may be true. However, I do know some very smart women who have gotten pregnant accidentally. It's claimed (by?) it takes an average of 7 years to exit your startup. That is a large chunk of time for women with a ticking biological clock. I do realise of course that it is possible to have kids in to your 40s, but most women choose not to do so.

That implies that women have a greater biological imperative to reproduce than men. I don't know that that's true. Honestly, I see my "grad school clock" as an equally big, if not bigger, problem than anyone's biological clock. When you do a startup, you have to choose your priorities -- the implication is that neither kids nor grad school are amongst them.

Kids take a lot of time, granted. But grad school? It takes 4-5 years (1), and during that time, you can work on your startup part time. You also develop technical skills, which you can later use to work outside the (somewhat crowded) webapp space.

(1) The average is 6 years, but that includes lots of lazy people, future college teachers, people who enjoy grad school, etc. Potential startup founders would almost certainly be faster.

Re: JL on Female Founders

#60
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember once reading that before modern medicine, 1/4 of pregnancies ended in death to the mother due to the baby's size. That would certainly explain why women don't take mating lightly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maternal_death "The historical level of maternal deaths is probably around 1 in 100 births." However: "Mortality rates reached horrible proportions in maternity institutions in the 1800s, sometimes climbing to 40 percent of birthgiving women."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy

"Also, the life expectancy for women was lower throughout history than it was for men; because, until the advent of modern medicine, one in four women died in childbirth."

I had heard this statistic originally in some atheist propaganda video, hilariously enough.

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